Stumped by charging output problem

[pmong]

Hi,

My GS450GA died about two months ago from an electrical problem. I have replaced the battery, what appear to be a burnt coil, and the R&R. No-load output from the strator was within spec, and output from the R&R is between 14-15 volts when not connected to the battery or circuit. However, when connected, the output at the battery is between 13.3 and 13.6 volts.

What gives? The manual says it should be between 14-15 volts. The R&R is by Rick's, which I hear should be a good make.

Any advice?

 

[Steve]

..., and output from the R&R is between 14-15 volts when not connected to the battery or circuit. ... Any advice?

Advice? Yeah, don't run it unless the R/R is connected to the battery.

They usually don't fare well unless loaded.

.

 

[posplayr]

Advice? Yeah, don't run it unless the R/R is connected to the battery.

They usually don't fare well unless loaded.

.

A man of few words.



Me as well "Quick Test"

 

[pmong]

Advice? Yeah, don't run it unless the R/R is connected to the battery.

They usually don't fare well unless loaded.

.

Thanks. I tested (not rode) not connected to see what the R&R is putting out without a load. But when connected through the wire harness, the voltage with a load at the battery is 13.3-13.6 volts, depending on the RPM. My manual says when tested while battery is connected, the specs call for 14-15 volts at the battery terminals. Other sources also say that it should be in that range.

 

[pmong]

A man of few words.

Me as well "Quick Test"

Ha, ha. My lack of effective communication.

When connected, the voltage at the battery terminal is below spec regardless of RPM. I thought I tested the stator (continuity and no-load output) and the R&R (directionality and resistance), and both seems good. But I am just not getting the right voltage to the battery (13.3-13.6 rather than 14-15 volts).

 

[posplayr]

Ha, ha. My lack of effective communication.

When connected, the voltage at the battery terminal is below spec regardless of RPM. I thought I tested the stator (continuity and no-load output) and the R&R (directionality and resistance), and both seems good. But I am just not getting the right voltage to the battery (13.3-13.6 rather than 14-15 volts).

Fortunately many of us here have moved far beyond the Factory Manual for electrical questions. Join us?


"Quick Test"

 

[pmong]

Fortunately many of us here have moved far beyond the Factory Manual for electrical questions. Join us?
"Quick Test"

OK, a little slow on the draw. Did not realize you wanted me to use the "Quick Test" rather than the testing procedure in the manual. Will do the next time I have some time.

I did check the ground, and seems to be a good connection on the ohm meter. Untaped the harness with the red wire to check for cracks and connection in the split to the battery and the rest of the circuit. Used contact cleaner on the fuse connector.

So, let's see what voltage I get for each of the steps.

Thanks.

 

[Guest]

Are you still using bullet connectors from the stator into the harness or R/R? If so, get rid of them and solder instead.

Have you bypassed the stator run that goes through the headlight switch so it goes straight to the R/R?

 

[posplayr]

Are you still using bullet connectors from the stator into the harness or R/R? If so, get rid of them and solder instead.

Have you bypassed the stator run that goes through the headlight switch so it goes straight to the R/R?

Yes, go to GS Charging Health (see my signature) as well, but first find a volt meter and get a basic read.

 

[pmong]

Are you still using bullet connectors from the stator into the harness or R/R? If so, get rid of them and solder instead.

Have you bypassed the stator run that goes through the headlight switch so it goes straight to the R/R?

Thanks for the suggestion. I did bypass the circuit that went to the switch when I had a Honda R&R, but not now with the Rick's R&R. I am back to using the harness and original plug.

I can try that, but the AC voltage readings are to spec from the stator whether I measure at the bullet connectors or at the multi-wire plug that normally goes into the R&R. This indicates, I believe, that the bullet connections are not a problem.

 

[pmong]

Yes, go to GS Charging Health (see my signature) as well, but first find a volt meter and get a basic read.

Will do, probably this weekend.

 

[posplayr]

Thanks for the suggestion. I did bypass the circuit that went to the switch when I had a Honda R&R, but not now with the Rick's R&R. I am back to using the harness and original plug.

I can try that, but the AC voltage readings are to spec from the stator whether I measure at the bullet connectors or at the multi-wire plug that normally goes into the R&R. This indicates, I believe, that the bullet connections are not a problem.

baseless and incorrect assumption

 

[pmong]

I can try that, but the AC voltage readings are to spec from the stator whether I measure at the bullet connectors or at the multi-wire plug that normally goes into the R&R. This indicates, I believe, that the bullet connections are not a problem.

baseless and incorrect assumption

Ok, what is a better way to test if the bullet connections and/or harness wires are problematic or have a short?

I am not an electrician, so sorry for any stupid questions. I am trying to learn and figure things out.

Tested the harness separately by grounding one of the ends of the ohm meter and the other to one of the harness wires. The B/W shows a closed circuit, which I expected. All other wires show an open circuit, which I assume means not shorting to ground.

Previously, I got the same no-load AC voltage output when I tested with the stator disconnected (without the bullets connected), and at the end of the harness (connected at the bullets but not plug connected into the R&R). If there is a bad or poor connection, won't that show up as a lower voltage output through the harness?

Hope my explanation of what I did is clear. Again, not an expert, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[posplayr]

Ok, what is a better way to test if the bullet connections and/or harness wires are problematic or have a short?

I am not an electrician, so sorry for any stupid questions. I am trying to learn and figure things out.

Tested the harness separately by grounding one of the ends of the ohm meter and the other to one of the harness wires. The B/W shows a closed circuit, which I expected. All other wires show an open circuit, which I assume means not shorting to ground.

Previously, I got the same no-load AC voltage output when I tested with the stator disconnected (without the bullets connected), and at the end of the harness (connected at the bullets but not plug connected into the R&R). If there is a bad or poor connection, won't that show up as a lower voltage output through the harness?

Hope my explanation of what I did is clear. Again, not an expert, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

There is a full battery of tests and diagnostics described in "Quick Test" and "GS Charging Health". And you should read "GS Stator" for additional information. See my signature.

As a general rule, if you don't understand a test that you create, it is probably not a very good test. I understand all the tests mentioned above, if you post the results I can help in the diagnosis.

Having said, that I'm not of a mind to spoon feed the information explaining why the tests you are doing are virtually meaningless especially if you have not even bothered to read the descriptions of how to do the tests and the reasons set forth for them.


P.S. after reviewing the rest of the thread, unless I see some numbers posted for the "Quick test" this is my last post here.

 

[pmong]

Hope that you can have a little patience with me as I try to work this out. Here are some numbers from the Quick Test. Sorry that I did not include them earlier.

1.) key off................Normal 12.7 volts-12.9 volts -- I have 12.7 to 12.8

2.) key on (but not cranking with lights for 10 sec).....Normal 12.2-12.5 volts Drops to about 12.3-12.5.

3.) at idle (1500 rpm).....12.6volts - 13.2volts Slightly over 13.0

4.) at 2500 rpm 13.5 -14.0 volts Get to about 13.5-13.6 (but GS450GA has no tach)

5.) at 5000 rpm.....14.0 -15.0 volts Does not go over 13.6 even when at very high rev (again no tach so just by sound)

6.) key off.....slightly higher than measurements # 1 (12.8-13.0 v) Around 13 volts, depending on how long I have the motor running.

According to your diagnostics, this implies not a good ground. Tested the B/W wire at plug for continuity with a good bolt, and found no measurable resistance. To be safe, went through and cleaned connections with contact cleaner solution just in case. But that did not increase the R&R voltage output at high rev.

Some other tests (no-load AC output, which passed spec), etc. based on manual. Based on result, I eliminated the possible problem with a bad stator and the connection between the stator and the R&R, I think.

Also, tried testing individual wires in the harness to see if I have any shorts or leakage in the wires in the harness. Did not find any with the ohm meter.

I can try your suggestion about rewiring the ground wire (B/W), but I don't want to do that unless necessary. I don't want to cut into the original wire, and I may not do a good job with the rewiring. This would be a last resort.

 

[pmong]

Forgot to give you the no-load AC output readings.

At high rev (no tac), output for all three pairs is over 80 volts. Manual (yes, i recall you saying that you have moved beyond the manual) specifies that if under 75v, then the AC generator is faulty.

==============
Added. Did you "STEP #2 MEASURE POSITIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP" (actually recall seeing the diagram when I first got the GS450GA but completely forgot it). The voltage is about 0.5 to 0.6, which seems to indicate a bad connection for the positive lead.

The above readings are after I previously did the following. I had previously unwrapped the harness to get to the red wire. Check for any cracks in the wire (did not see any). Check the junction the splits the signal to the battery and to the rest of the circuit (looks good). Applied contact cleaning solution to the fuse connection. Same with where the wire connected at the starter relay.

I can try and redo the above again to see if I can improve connections for the red lead, but I have to get a new can of contact cleaning solution. Ran out from all the cleaning of various connections.

Where else might I check for possible bad connection?

Or should I just move to "STEP #3 MEASURE NEGATIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP"?

 

[posplayr]

Hope that you can have a little patience with me as I try to work this out. Here are some numbers from the Quick Test. Sorry that I did not include them earlier.

1.) key off................Normal 12.7 volts-12.9 volts -- I have 12.7 to 12.8

2.) key on (but not cranking with lights for 10 sec).....Normal 12.2-12.5 volts Drops to about 12.3-12.5.

3.) at idle (1500 rpm).....12.6volts - 13.2volts Slightly over 13.2

4.) at 2500 rpm 13.5 -14.0 volts Get to about 13.5-13.6 (but GS450GA has no tach)

5.) at 5000 rpm.....14.0 -15.0 volts Does not go over 13.6 even when at very high rev (again no tach so just by sound)

6.) key off.....slightly higher than measurements # 1 (12.8-13.0 v) Around 13 volts, depending on how long I have the motor running.

According to your diagnostics, this implies not a good ground. Tested the B/W wire at plug for continuity with a good bolt, and found no measurable resistance. To be safe, went through and cleaned connections with contact cleaner solution just in case. But that did not increase the R&R voltage output at high rev.

Some other tests (no-load AC output, which passed spec), etc. based on manual. Based on result, I eliminated the possible problem with a bad stator and the connection between the stator and the R&R, I think.

Also, tried testing individual wires in the harness to see if I have any shorts or leakage in the wires in the harness. Did not find any with the ohm meter.

I can try your suggestion about rewiring the ground wire (B/W), but I don't want to do that unless necessary. I don't want to cut into the original wire, and I may not do a good job with the rewiring. This would be a last resort.

Your voltage is too low, which could be either stator of the connections

You can not test the resistance as the resistance levels are below the resolution of your meter. At 10 amps and 0.1 ohms (typical meter resolution) you are talking 1 whole volt of drop. You have to measure the resistance as a voltage drop.

Test according to revised Phase A tests in GS Charging Health.

You need something like Deoxit or other chemical cleaner and corrosion preventative.

If you have big drops clean them, if not then the stator is going out.

 

[pmong]

Your voltage is too low, which could be either stator of the connections

You can not test the resistance as the resistance levels are below the resolution of your meter. At 10 amps and 0.1 ohms (typical meter resolution) you are talking 1 whole volt of drop. You have to measure the resistance as a voltage drop.

Test according to revised Phase A tests in GS Charging Health.

You need something like Deoxit or other chemical cleaner and corrosion preventative.

If you have big drops clean them, if not then the stator is going out.

Oops, see my last email. I was busy with the test and typing up the results.

I am using a product call PUREtronics Contact Cleaner, which I bought at an electronics store. I also use it on other electronics, such as connectors for computers and model airplanes. It does not list the ingredients (which seems strange now that I try looking for the components).

Is there any product you recommend and/or use?

 

[pmong]

Here is what I added via edits to an earlier post:

Added. Did you "STEP #2 MEASURE POSITIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP" (actually recall seeing the diagram when I first got the GS450GA but completely forgot it). The voltage is about 0.5 to 0.6, which seems to indicate a bad connection for the positive lead.

The above readings are after I previously did the following. I had previously unwrapped the harness to get to the red wire. Check for any cracks in the wire (did not see any). Check the junction the splits the signal to the battery and to the rest of the circuit (looks good). Applied contact cleaning solution to the fuse connection. Same with where the wire connected at the starter relay.

I can try and redo the above again to see if I can improve connections for the red lead, but I have to get a new can of contact cleaning solution. Ran out from all the cleaning of various connections.

Where else might I check for possible bad connection?

Or should I just move to "STEP #3 MEASURE NEGATIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP"?

 

[posplayr]

Deoxit is a good product, if they are really dirty naval jelly with water fush them Deoxit. It leaves a protective coating after naval jelly strips all. 0.6v is way too much and probably means that it is not a stator issue.

Chase down l connections between battery and r/ r till the voltage drops are low. Your charging should steadily increase to about 14.5 v.

You have a series r/r right?


Yes both sides need to be low.