They Dont call it "Sparks and Magic" for Nuttn

[Skateguy50]

You just need to run the highbeams when at high rpms

 

[mawg]

I don't think thats gonna help,as the problem,as I understand it is heat. As RPM rises the stator produces more voltage/current, witch is either used by the load or shunted to ground by the regulator/rectifier assembly.So the heat is still produced. What POSplayer is trying to do is (I think) reduce the output at higher revs,= less heat.Thats why I wonder weather a different rotor with smaller magnets would work, but I don't know if thats even possible. Another thought, would it be possible to weld material to the central boss the stator fits over,then machine some slots or angles like a 12 point socket to act as a heat sink?Or maybe a finned stator cover? POSplayer, I too spend alot of time or the high side of 6k revs,so I'm interested to see what soulition you can come up with.Good luck!

 

[BassCliff]

You just need to run the highbeams when at high rpms

Hi,

I run my high beams all the time, especially during the day. I've been considering replacing my incandescent turn signals with superbright LEDs. But if I need to burn off the extra current then perhaps this isn't such a good idea.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[posplayr]

This has been a busy week but I do have an update from a ride I made out to Tehachapi to see Bill and Kris start up the 1230. Before making the 360 mile round trip from the coast at Santa Barbara, over the mountains to about 4500 ft on the twisty turny Hwy 33, then across the flat San Joaquin Valley south of Bakersfield and then one more climb to 4000 ft at Tehachapi. Temps on the coast were mile (mid 70's), the Temp in the central valley ranges from low 90's to just over 100 degF south of Bako. This route was 180 miles one way.

This almost deserves another thread, but I'll add this here.

The primary change to the bike was to add GregB's distribution block with where I adapted the my old tope end oiler to fit with my oil gauge and the original oil temp gauge and switch. What I added as shown before was a oil cooler line in an attempt to improve cooling to the stator. Here are the basic results.


A.) The bike ran cooler than it ever did even when it was stock which was before installation of the 1166 kit. Yes there was probably a 20-30 degF rise in running temperature (say from 240 to 270) for a relatively warm 85 degrees ambient between stock and 1166. With the oil line spraying the rotor/stator my temperature never got over 210 degrees and this was despite the climb and 90-100 degF temperatures

My oil pressure was slightly reduced but still healthy. There is a restrictor in the line (maybe 1mm of a brass standard fitting) and I have the high performance gears.
The pressure appeared to be pretty consistently reading PSI=2*KRPM. That means I would get the following pressures pretty consistently while monitoring during the ride.

RPM KRPM Pressure-Psi
2500 2.5 5
5000 5.0 10
7500 7.5 15
The gauge pegs somewhere above the 15 psi mark.

I don’t know if there could be further temperature improvement by letting more oil flow, for the time being until I get better lines I'm not going to experiment with it.


I think this is remarkable but am not sure as to how much of the improvement is due to cooling of the stator of to improved oil flow due to higher volume and therefore more opportunity for cooling. What it does suggest is that if you get a high performance gears and don't have a top end oiler but do add a cooler, you may in fact not improve the cooling at all.

The charging seemed to improve somewhat which I can only attribute to a cooler stator which is able to actually increase it's output at higher RPM's over 5K. While this is not necessarily needed, it shows that cooling to the stator is likely to have improved.

As part of trying to explain why the engine is running slower, I did some horsepower calculations. To keep it simple approx 750 watts is 1 horsepower. Depending upon the configuration we could use a rule of thumb of 1 watt per RPM. So at 7.5K rpm the stator requires 10 Hp to rotate. When it really only takes 250 watts max to power the electrical which is less than 4% of the load being put on the engine.

I spoke to Kris's brother that came to his house. Both these guys have been working and playing with bikes since they were teen agers. He said he had implemented a series regulator years ago for a Harley. I'm looking forward to seen the schematic. In the mean time I've been looking at easy ways to implement a series regulator using some modern devices. The primary benefit of teh series regulator is that when the voltage gets too high, it opens up the windings in the stator which does not allow any current to flow (Y configuration only). If there is no current flow then there is no back EMF and so no load on the motor. It is like trying to drink from a fire hose. U only need 4% of the total power capacity at 7500 RPM. The shunt regulator is the equivalent of using two screw drivers to short your wall circuit when you want to dim your lights. Yes you dim the lights but the wiring in the wall is pulling a whole lot of current. Shunt regulators are cheap brute force devices.

My plan is to have a prototype by the time we go to Bruce's for teh Western States ralley. Bruce is planning on having $20 dyno runs so it woudl be a real eye opener to see a 10 hp change by just swaping out the R/R.

 

[posplayr]

While youre in there playing with magnets how about inventing a magnetic side cover mount :idea:. I nearly lost one yesterday when the low rent velcro got hot and the glue let loose. Friggin broken tabs. :-k

works well.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1223637#post1223637

 

[posplayr]

If you are following this thread then go and answer this poll.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=160651

 

[Greg B]

I really like this idea. Reminds me of the early oil cooled GSX-Rs. Using directed oil jets for cooling. I wonder if you could put multiple oil outputs inside the stator cover for even better cooling. Might not be enough room.
I'm probably going to do this on my 1150. I work out in Corona, and in the summer temps get well into the 100s. My charging system seems to be working correctly, at least by running all the standard checks.

 

[posplayr]

I really like this idea. Reminds me of the early oil cooled GSX-Rs. Using directed oil jets for cooling. I wonder if you could put multiple oil outputs inside the stator cover for even better cooling. Might not be enough room.
I'm probably going to do this on my 1150. I work out in Corona, and in the summer temps get well into the 100s. My charging system seems to be working correctly, at least by running all the standard checks.

I had considered running internal piping that you would not even see and multiple jets. In the end it seemed more reliable not introduce another thing that could break off inside. The single feed itself is restricted. I drilled into the cover using grease to catch the filings. The rotor is very close and so I ground the end of the NPT fitting to insure clearance. So I would say I'm spraying the spinning rotor as much as the stator so adding additional ones may not have as much additional benefit especially when considering the external clutter.

The real trick will be to get a series regulator and pick up extra 10 hp.

 

[Guest]

This has been a busy week but I do have an update from a ride I made out to Tehachapi to see Bill and Kris start up the 1230. Before making the 360 mile round trip from the coast at Santa Barbara, over the mountains to about 4500 ft on the twisty turny Hwy 33, then across the flat San Joaquin Valley south of Bakersfield and then one more climb to 4000 ft at Tehachapi. Temps on the coast were mile (mid 70's), the Temp in the central valley ranges from low 90's to just over 100 degF south of Bako. This route was 180 miles one way.

This almost deserves another thread, but I'll add this here.

The primary change to the bike was to add GregB's distribution block with where I adapted the my old tope end oiler to fit with my oil gauge and the original oil temp gauge and switch. What I added as shown before was a oil cooler line in an attempt to improve cooling to the stator. Here are the basic results.


A.) The bike ran cooler than it ever did even when it was stock which was before installation of the 1166 kit. Yes there was probably a 20-30 degF rise in running temperature (say from 240 to 270) for a relatively warm 85 degrees ambient between stock and 1166. With the oil line spraying the rotor/stator my temperature never got over 210 degrees and this was despite the climb and 90-100 degF temperatures

My oil pressure was slightly reduced but still healthy. There is a restrictor in the line (maybe 1mm of a brass standard fitting) and I have the high performance gears.
The pressure appeared to be pretty consistently reading PSI=2*KRPM. That means I would get the following pressures pretty consistently while monitoring during the ride.

RPM KRPM Pressure-Psi
2500 2.5 5
5000 5.0 10
7500 7.5 15
The gauge pegs somewhere above the 15 psi mark.

I don?t know if there could be further temperature improvement by letting more oil flow, for the time being until I get better lines I'm not going to experiment with it.


I think this is remarkable but am not sure as to how much of the improvement is due to cooling of the stator of to improved oil flow due to higher volume and therefore more opportunity for cooling. What it does suggest is that if you get a high performance gears and don't have a top end oiler but do add a cooler, you may in fact not improve the cooling at all.

The charging seemed to improve somewhat which I can only attribute to a cooler stator which is able to actually increase it's output at higher RPM's over 5K. While this is not necessarily needed, it shows that cooling to the stator is likely to have improved.

As part of trying to explain why the engine is running slower, I did some horsepower calculations. To keep it simple approx 750 watts is 1 horsepower. Depending upon the configuration we could use a rule of thumb of 1 watt per RPM. So at 7.5K rpm the stator requires 10 Hp to rotate. When it really only takes 250 watts max to power the electrical which is less than 4% of the load being put on the engine.

I spoke to Kris's brother that came to his house. Both these guys have been working and playing with bikes since they were teen agers. He said he had implemented a series regulator years ago for a Harley. I'm looking forward to seen the schematic. In the mean time I've been looking at easy ways to implement a series regulator using some modern devices. The primary benefit of teh series regulator is that when the voltage gets too high, it opens up the windings in the stator which does not allow any current to flow (Y configuration only). If there is no current flow then there is no back EMF and so no load on the motor. It is like trying to drink from a fire hose. U only need 4% of the total power capacity at 7500 RPM. The shunt regulator is the equivalent of using two screw drivers to short your wall circuit when you want to dim your lights. Yes you dim the lights but the wiring in the wall is pulling a whole lot of current. Shunt regulators are cheap brute force devices.

My plan is to have a prototype by the time we go to Bruce's for teh Western States ralley. Bruce is planning on having $20 dyno runs so it woudl be a real eye opener to see a 10 hp change by just swaping out the R/R.

When you speak about the bike now running cooler, I'm assuming you are going by the temp gauge, which is indicating the oil temp. By cooling the stator via additional flow, the heat is being exchanged and absorbed by the oil.....the only way (as I see it) to achieve a cooler oil temp is to increase the oil-cooler capacity/efficiency where it is cooled by forced convection, or to reduce heat at the source (the engine). With no other mods except adding a line to bathe the stator, I'm curious as to the reason for a 50 degree drop in temps.:-k
Also not understanding your statement that adding a cooler might not actually help cooling, without also adding a top-end oiler......regardless of stock or high-vol gears used, simply adding a heat-exchanger in the oil path loop should & will achieve reduced temps, provided the bike is moving, no?

As for the dyno 10 hp experiment, two runs, with the stator connected & disconnected might reveal the actual hp difference even with stock RR....I think the difference may be a couple hp, 10 would be great!

 

[posplayr]

When you speak about the bike now running cooler, I'm assuming you are going by the temp gauge, which is indicating the oil temp. By cooling the stator via additional flow, the heat is being exchanged and absorbed by the oil.....the only way (as I see it) to achieve a cooler oil temp is to increase the oil-cooler capacity/efficiency where it is cooled by forced convection, or to reduce heat at the source (the engine). With no other mods except adding a line to bathe the stator, I'm curious as to the reason for a 50 degree drop in temps.:-k
Also not understanding your statement that adding a cooler might not actually help cooling, without also adding a top-end oiler......regardless of stock or high-vol gears used, simply adding a heat-exchanger in the oil path loop should & will achieve reduced temps, provided the bike is moving, no?

As for the dyno 10 hp experiment, two runs, with the stator connected & disconnected might reveal the actual hp difference even with stock RR....I think the difference may be a couple hp, 10 would be great!

Yes I'm relying on the stock ED Oil Temp gauge. Only diff is I have moved the sensor location to GregB's distribution block. By the gauge I have dropped from about 270 to 210 so I'm calling that 50 degrees. I did not have a the Showchrome before when going through hot conditions but it would at least get to that temp.

While I'm sure teh stator is running cooler, I'm not attribting the whole temp drop to that. The theory is that with the hi po gears there is not sufficent flow because the system is relatively restricted making the pump work real hard and heat the oil. Without the bleeder I'm running at 12-15 PSI most of the time and then if I get on it who knows.

With the bleeder there is more oil circulation. Yes keeps the stator cooler but also more oil flow. This is theory, but it is hard to argue with the gauge. The gauge was recently replaced by me and both it and sensor were checked to be within factory specs.

A Oil cooler is probably good for the stock oil pump, but with the Hipo gears maybe adding restriction unless you go for 8AN lines. Bottom line bike seems happier/cooler with less oil pressure. I'm using stock 550 hoses (IIRC about 5/16"). Bleeded made a big diff in temp that is for sure, just not exactly sure why

Well if my calculations above are correct then 10 hp is conservative (10 hp = 7500 Watts)

Also yes, back to back tests will be most convincing. A working prototype would be even more so than simply pulling the r/r.

 

[TheCafeKid]

When you speak about the bike now running cooler, I'm assuming you are going by the temp gauge, which is indicating the oil temp. By cooling the stator via additional flow, the heat is being exchanged and absorbed by the oil.....the only way (as I see it) to achieve a cooler oil temp is to increase the oil-cooler capacity/efficiency where it is cooled by forced convection, or to reduce heat at the source (the engine). With no other mods except adding a line to bathe the stator, I'm curious as to the reason for a 50 degree drop in temps.:-k
Also not understanding your statement that adding a cooler might not actually help cooling, without also adding a top-end oiler......regardless of stock or high-vol gears used, simply adding a heat-exchanger in the oil path loop should & will achieve reduced temps, provided the bike is moving, no?

As for the dyno 10 hp experiment, two runs, with the stator connected & disconnected might reveal the actual hp difference even with stock RR....I think the difference may be a couple hp, 10 would be great!

wow look at Tony busting out the knowlege! Love it

Something interesting that I noticed on our recent trip we were riding the slab, running about 5K, just cruising. It was brutal hot and humid around 87-90 degreesF. With the cooler my indicated temp was rght at the operating temp mark. In fact I have rarely ever seen it higher. Only sittin in traffic or after long stretches of rowing through the twisties in low gears and high RPMs. At any rate we ran through a stretch where it had at sometime previously stormed but by now the only tell was the wet road. It had obviously poured recently but the sun was back out and the humidity was high. Temp gauge, which was resting on the OT mark, once sprayed with the water from the road surface shot down 50% in a matter of seconds. Now I'm sure some of the water hitting the cases brought the temp down but to me for it to happen that fast the, the cooler had to be the biggest player with it's ability to cool on it's own plus the further cooling effect of the water spray. What would be neat to develop would be a little spray controller to give the cooler a blast of water mist in the event youre stuck in traffic or for you guys out west or southwest where the temps get worse.

 

[TheCafeKid]

Jimmy I am a little concerned that you keep stating you're pegging that pressure gauge. I have run pressure gauge on various displacement GS motors and when cold would see pressure that high but never when warm even at HIGH RpM. Now I haven't run one on high volume gears in the pump but I wouldn't think it would increase pressure THAT much would it? It's simply increasing speed of flow, not pressure (or should be only doing that right?)

 

[Dogma]

Josh, you can only stuff so much fluid through a hole per second. The resistance to flow increases pretty rapidly with volumetric flow rate, depending on the fluid viscosity, making higher pressure at the pump. The pump is a constant volume design, which means that it pumps the same volume per revolution (Assuming it's not turning so fast as to suck air or some other engine destroying misbehavior). The cold oil is more viscous, so it requires more pressure to stuff that volume through the passages. That's why pressure drops as the engine warms.

Shoving all that fluid through a hole (or oiling system) stirs the oil something fierce, heating it more than the engine's heat alone would. High flow pump gears alone will do this, raising the oil temp, even though more oil is getting to various parts of the engine. So, the oil cooler would be a good match for the high flow gears.

Providing another outlet for the pump to shove oil through (to the stator) is basically pushing the fluid through a larger hole, making the flow easier, reducing the heating of the oil.

Adding a cooler can increase pressure because longer holes have the same effect as smaller holes. So, pushing the oil through the lines and cooler will also tend to heat the oil. The cooler has to work well enough to overcome this additional heat load to be effective.

So, um, don't put the high flow pump gears in without considering the extra heat load. One could theoretically use a dump path with a tuned orifice to limit the extra flow's tendency to raise oil pressure. This is probably what the stator cooler is doing to lower the oil temp. The trick would seem to be making sure that there is still enough oil going to the head. A pressure gage at the top end would seem to be in order for that task, and some reverse engineering to figure out what pressure the cam bearings need to work. Too mutch pressure at the bearings just heats the oil and breaks it down faster. Too little oil has obvious consequences. I think I'd probably just want to see pressure at the top end similar to stock pressure at the pump, and call that good. Never mind the reverse engineering.

All that heating of oil is also work done by the engine, so unnecessary flow and heating is also decreasing output by maybe a few HP. Dumping excess flow over the stator might relieve that power loss.

 

[posplayr]

Josh, you can only stuff so much fluid through a hole per second. The resistance to flow increases pretty rapidly with volumetric flow rate, depending on the fluid viscosity, making higher pressure at the pump. The pump is a constant volume design, which means that it pumps the same volume per revolution (Assuming it's not turning so fast as to suck air or some other engine destroying misbehavior). The cold oil is more viscous, so it requires more pressure to stuff that volume through the passages. That's why pressure drops as the engine warms.

Shoving all that fluid through a hole (or oiling system) stirs the oil something fierce, heating it more than the engine's heat alone would. High flow pump gears alone will do this, raising the oil temp, even though more oil is getting to various parts of the engine. So, the oil cooler would be a good match for the high flow gears.

Providing another outlet for the pump to shove oil through (to the stator) is basically pushing the fluid through a larger hole, making the flow easier, reducing the heating of the oil.

Adding a cooler can increase pressure because longer holes have the same effect as smaller holes. So, pushing the oil through the lines and cooler will also tend to heat the oil. The cooler has to work well enough to overcome this additional heat load to be effective.

So, um, don't put the high flow pump gears in without considering the extra heat load. One could theoretically use a dump path with a tuned orifice to limit the extra flow's tendency to raise oil pressure. This is probably what the stator cooler is doing to lower the oil temp. The trick would seem to be making sure that there is still enough oil going to the head. A pressure gage at the top end would seem to be in order for that task, and some reverse engineering to figure out what pressure the cam bearings need to work. Too mutch pressure at the bearings just heats the oil and breaks it down faster. Too little oil has obvious consequences. I think I'd probably just want to see pressure at the top end similar to stock pressure at the pump, and call that good. Never mind the reverse engineering.

All that heating of oil is also work done by the engine, so unnecessary flow and heating is also decreasing output by maybe a few HP. Dumping excess flow over the stator might relieve that power loss.

That pretty much sums it; The stator is cooler but not so much to account for the entire drop in temperature. I'm not sure I need head pressure because I still have 2-2.5 times as much as stock at the rear where it is normally measured.

As Ed says to measure is to know, I have ambient temp (both inside and out:-\\\ with my show chrom), oil temp and pressure as measured at the rear distribution plate. The sense locations have not changed other than going to Greg's version.

 

[posplayr]

Wait a minute, put your portable drills back in to your holsters......



There is an update to this story....... :-\\\




L8ter

 

[Greg B]

wait a minute, put your portable drills back in to your holsters......



There is an update to this story....... :-\\\




l8ter

well??????????

 

[posplayr]

well??????????

oil leak was the starter cavity which filled up. I PLUGGED THE DRAIN HOLE to elimiate that as a cause. So, I'm figuring with all that oil flying under the cover it is directly hitting the starter o-ring

 

[posplayr]

OK I think I solved the problems. I had put in an over sized O-ring from my HF metric O-ring kit and if you are not careful and use plenty of grease it will rip and then leak.

The HF Metric kit has a 24.75x3.3mm o-ring (actual dimensions) v.s. the stock which calls for 24.5x3mm.

I pulled the carbs back and used a tie strap to keep them out of the way while I worked on the starter. I also pulled the stator cover so I could use "Ultra Black" to seal the nose of the starter where the O-ring is partially exposed.

Make sure you push the starter in straight, if it is cocked you can easily cut the o-ring. Also watch out to not gouge the sealing surface in the cases with the end gear. Also if you push it too far through the O-ring will push out the other side and then there is another opportunity to cut it.

I cleaned it really good, and made a nice ring all around so even if it were to come off it would remain a Ring on the starter gear.

After riding to Kris V's last weekend to see Bill start his 1229, I experienced much cooler temperatures (210 and below) and my stator is no worse than what it was before. Apparently the sprayer is keeping it cooler. I'm using 4AN line with 1/8" NPT fittings. There is a restrictor which is about 0.090" (approx).

Bottom line this seems to be very effective at keep the stator cool. If you are not going to get a SERIES R/R, then I would certainly recommend this. Just based on the pressure drop with the Hi Po gears I would also do it.

You can see the sprayer; the end has been ground off a little to insure it clears the rotor.

I got new Teflon coated lines from Paragon (made to fit). Three lines cost me about $35 shipped but they are made to order.


Here is the layout from Greg's distribution block. I only had to add the one top hole for the oiler T.

 

[Guest]

Let's take bets on where it will leak next. :-\\\

 

[ryonker]

I know some think it isn't worth it, but this seems to be another good reason for putting an oil cooler on the bike. I know my 79 runs quite a bit cooler; when I stop I can feel the heat pouring off of my cooler .

Rick