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Tube or tubeless

  • Thread starter Thread starter astradaryl
  • Start date Start date
A

astradaryl

Guest
Hi all I've got a 1977 gs750 running mag wheels that had tubes in can I enlarge the valve hole and use tubeless tyres or is this a recipe for disaster??

Thanks daryl
 
Some people adapt and others don't. There are pros and cons both ways. There are at least a dozen long threads on this topic in the archive if you care to learn from what's been said before.
 
astradaryl said:
Hi all I've got a 1977 gs750 running mag wheels that had tubes in can I enlarge the valve hole and use tubeless tyres or is this a recipe for disaster??
Click to expand...


The issue is that the rims aren't designed to properly hold the bead on a tubeless tire. The correct designation for a tubeless rim is "MT". If your rim size is marked with that then you are good to go. If not then you are taking your chances on having a tire deflate and come off the rim. Personally, tubes aren't that big of a PITA that I am willing to risk a catastrophic tire failure while I am sailing down the highway. YMMV

A second question is if there is enough material around the valve stem hole to properly install a tubeless stem. I have never looked at that so can't say if it is good to go or not.


Mark
 
astradaryl said:
Hi all I've got a 1977 gs750 running mag wheels that had tubes in can I enlarge the valve hole and use tubeless tyres or is this a recipe for disaster??

Thanks daryl
Click to expand...

I ran tubeless for awhile until I became a member of the forum and found out more info on the subject, I went back to tubes on my bike. Though if you decided to go tubeless NAPA has a valve stem that will fit the small hole. Don't recall the part number though it is buried in this forum section somewhere.
 
Bike Master tubeless valve stems. Two big flat rubber washers..one for each side of the rim....done. I run tubeless on my stock 78 1000E and the Cooley rims and have never had a problem.
 
mmattockx said:
The issue is that the rims aren't designed to properly hold the bead on a tubeless tire. The correct designation for a tubeless rim is "MT". If your rim size is marked with that then you are good to go. If not then you are taking your chances on having a tire deflate and come off the rim. Personally, tubes aren't that big of a PITA that I am willing to risk a catastrophic tire failure while I am sailing down the highway. YMMV

A second question is if there is enough material around the valve stem hole to properly install a tubeless stem. I have never looked at that so can't say if it is good to go or not.


Mark
Click to expand...

The early "tubeless" GS front wheels (early Kawasaki fronts too) didn't have the humps to hold the tire on the bead. Apparently both those companies didn't think there was "risk a catastrophic failure" like you site.
 
Gregory has been running tubeless on his stock 78 1000E rims for quite a while also and he hasnt had 1 problem so far.
 
What's the down side to sticking with a tube?

On something as important as tires, I try and stick with the factory specs.
 
down side to tubes? flats are easier to deal with if you run tubeless.
can't plug the tire safely if it has a tube .
I have plugged tube type ( on alloy wheels) that have a bolt-in valve stem, but i crossed my fingers.
usually the tube is wrecked if you get a flat while riding, so it can't be patched, you could carry extra tubes like on the bicycle, but it takes up precious space and then the wheel has to come off to fix it in the middle of nowhere. ( if you remembered the tire irons)
I like plugs and a can or two of "instant spare"

I ran tubeless on my old 81 400 with no issues (factory tubes) it's gone now, but I have gone tubeless on the wheel barrow with no issues so far.
 
Vmass said:
What's the down side to sticking with a tube? ....
Click to expand...

Heat build up. Tubes rub against the inside of the tire. The friction generates heat. The lower the air pressure and the higher the speed, the more heat is generated. Since most riders don't press their tires anywhere near the limit, the increase in heat buildup is not likely to cause any problems. FWIW, the types of rubber used in tubes and innerliner are the types of rubber that generate the most heat when flexed.
 
Nessism said:
The early "tubeless" GS front wheels (early Kawasaki fronts too) didn't have the humps to hold the tire on the bead. Apparently both those companies didn't think there was "risk a catastrophic failure" like you site.
Click to expand...

I am simply stating the official info on the MT bead profile. The MT rim also has a different angle where the bead seats, it isn't just the extra lip. As I said, YMMV.


Mark
 
mmattockx said:
Personally, tubes aren't that big of a PITA that I am willing to risk a catastrophic tire failure while I am sailing down the highway. YMMV
Click to expand...

+1

Recently replaced front and rear rubber; wanted to go as big and best as possible on the stock "snowflakes."

Was told Pirelli Sport Demons (or their equivalent) was it (I bought the Pirellis). Was told the snowflakes weren't designed for the best modern tires/there were no modern tires designed for my snowflakes.

I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing hard with wheels and tires that weren't designed for each other.
 
mmattockx said:
The issue is that the rims aren't designed to properly hold the bead on a tubeless tire. ....If not then you are taking your chances on having a tire deflate and come off the rim. Personally, tubes aren't that big of a PITA that I am willing to risk a catastrophic tire failure while I am sailing down the highway. YMMV

A second question is if there is enough material around the valve stem hole to properly install a tubeless stem. I have never looked at that so can't say if it is good to go or not.


Mark
Click to expand...

I don't believe the lip is going to have any bearing on a tubeless tire coming off the rim at highway speeds unless you are way under-inflated, but rather if you had a sudden flat first, then the lip will in theory help keep the bead from moving. I'd venture that a tubed tire gone flat is going to present a problem at highway speed too. If you hit a curb it might keep the bead from moving inward but if you hit a curb at speed you will be worrying about staying on the bike period.
I've converted many years of GS bikes to tubeless with tens of thousands of problem free miles. I have very little chicken strip and push the old GSes to triple digit speeds. It's up to each to decide if there is a risk. You might be able to find thinner tubeless valve stems online that fit right in the existing rim hole, or the local dealer will have thicker tubeless valve stems that require careful drilling to enlarge the rim hole.
I've had some issues with mounting a tube in the tire by pinching it and ruining the tube. My fault but it does happen. I think others have had the same mistake but won't admit it. So yeah another $10-15 for a new tube is a downside. The heat from friction could raise that issue for real aggressive riders and in long hot highway riding temps like across the desert or the south.
The issue with tubeless is sometimes without a good compressor the bead doesn't always seat especially if the tire has been stored flat. A tie down ratchet strap carefully located around the circumference of the tire will help keep it in place while inflated along with generous use of tire lube. You could use the explosive lighter fuel trick but that looks pretty sketchy. Also clean your rim well before mounting to get the old rubber scraps off so there's a smooth surface for the new tire bead to slip in place properly and possible create slow air leak points.
Also mentioned is the option of roadside repair plugs for tubeless tires that is a huge item when travelling distances along desolate stretches.
BTW, you still have to break the bead for tube type tires when removing and they are just as stuck on from age too. Then you have to pry the tube out because it's "glued" from age. I've even had some tear trying to remove since they were so "one" with the rim or inner wall of the tire!
 
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lurch12_2000 said:
If you hit a curb it might keep the bead from moving inward but if you hit a curb at speed you will be worrying about staying on the bike period.
Click to expand...

That is basically the reason against tubeless on tube type rim. You could hit something, curb, rock, pothole, it happens. Anybody ever come back from an off road excursion to find bent or dinged rim? Without the proper tire/rim configuration it could have been a lot more exciting. That could actually unseat the tire causing instant air loss so while you're trying to regain control from hitting something you're now trying to do that with a flat tire, usually the front. Let me know how that's going to work out. Most anybody who has ever ridden dirt bikes can probably remember a time or two they had to dismount a tire to remove the bark, grass and twigs from under the tires bead, good thing you had tube.
 
Mmmmm lets see, dogs, cars, oil, rain, white lines and the list goes on. Why add tubeless to to a bike thats not designed for them to the list of things that mite hurt you? As for heat when flexing, maybe if your running your GS at a flat track/speedway meeting and use 12psi for traction. Even then talcum/baby powder sprinkled inside tyre when installing it will help with friction. For the street just leave it alone and just ride the dam bike knowing one less thing is out there to hurt you. Side note, people who use right angle rubber valve stems should also worry as they flex enough to make it another thing on the list to hurt you. NEW ones be ok but older type mite break. Photo below shows they flex far enough to scratch the rim.

 
Sandy said:
That is basically the reason against tubeless on tube type rim. You could hit something, curb, rock, pothole, it happens. Anybody ever come back from an off road excursion to find bent or dinged rim? Without the proper tire/rim configuration it could have been a lot more exciting. That could actually unseat the tire causing instant air loss so while you're trying to regain control from hitting something you're now trying to do that with a flat tire, usually the front. Let me know how that's going to work out. Most anybody who has ever ridden dirt bikes can probably remember a time or two they had to dismount a tire to remove the bark, grass and twigs from under the tires bead, good thing you had tube.
Click to expand...

I guess if I was doing a lot of off road riding I wouldn't use my old street GSes period and use tubed tires. Though I have done plenty of uneven gravel and dirt roads(not 4 wheel drive roads but occasionally if so very slowly to get through an unintended destination) in New England without issue on GS tubeless tires mounted properly on non marked rims. If I hit a curb at speed on pavement I think I would be off the
bike and not have a clue whether my tire bead broke loose. The impact from miscalculation, rider error or a cager caused the getoff situation, not whether the bead held in place.
In the end the risk aversion folks will choose to stay with what's marked and quite a few of us with lots of miles will convert over. To each their own right? This isn't the first time this issue has been debated.
 
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sharpy said:
Mmmmm lets see, dogs, cars, oil, rain, white lines and the list goes on. Why add tubeless to to a bike thats not designed for them to the list of things that mite hurt you? As for heat when flexing, maybe if your running your GS at a flat track/speedway meeting and use 12psi for traction. Even then talcum/baby powder sprinkled inside tyre when installing it will help with friction. For the street just leave it alone and just ride the dam bike knowing one less thing is out there to hurt you. Side note, people who use right angle rubber valve stems should also worry as they flex enough to make it another thing on the list to hurt you. NEW ones be ok but older type mite break. Photo below shows they flex far enough to scratch the rim.

Click to expand...

Interesting...I use the shorter straight stem ones to avoid any flex over time and easiest to get at with a gauge or hose.
 
lurch12_2000 said:
Interesting...I use the shorter straight stem ones to avoid any flex over time and easiest to get at with a gauge or hose.
Click to expand...
Short ones are the best, just we replaced them every 2nd tyre change. A few bucks is worth piece of mind. Oh and if anyone wonders why valve caps are there, apparently if the cap wasnt fitted at speed (60+) the valve core can open up due to centrifugal force. So toss those silly/heavy caps away that dont have rubber seals inside them and use just plastic or tiny steel ones for piece of mind.
 
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