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valve trouble--- keepers are hitting the bottom of the buckets

exdirtbiker

exdirtbiker

Forum Mentor
So I pulled the Beast apart, and found my low compression was "all in my head". { insert joke here }
I gave the head to my engine guy and he immediately said "I don't like the looks of these... buy new valves".
He didn't even get them out of the head yet, he was just looking at the tops of some valves: the keepers are polished / worn from contacting the underside of the bucket.
Any way this story can end without me buying new valves? or another head?
 
No. Either the keepers have pulled through the valve tips - in which case buy a lotto ticket cos you just got very lucky - or a PO has trimmed the tips to get valve clearance....and gone way too far.
 
It just keeps getting better....

we took the head apart today: the ex valve in the "bad" hole was never seated. part of the guide missing, too.

and... how do I tell if these are stock valve springs? I was told by PO that they were "heavy duty" and / or "special" to go with the Web 118 cams.
EDIT- TALKED TO KIBBLEWHITE, MAKER OF WEB CAM SPRING KIT VS-S10- MY SPRINGS ARE "PERFECT LG".
but since he also said it had a 1085 kit ( it don't) so I can't believe anything he said.

Here's some pics:




 
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You could take a known stock valve spring and see what deflection a lever has with a given weight on the end of it, when you mount it so that it bears down on the spring. Measuring the distances involved will tell you what the value is - then measure the unknown ones.
It involves making a little jig, but it would be simple enough.
 
I measured them... If I read the Clymer book correctly, the outer springs are .015" too short and the inners are .170" too long. ... huh??? Edit: they are in fact Web springs and are correct lg.
 
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Grimly said:
You could take a known stock valve spring and see what deflection a lever has with a given weight on the end of it, when you mount it so that it bears down on the spring. Measuring the distances involved will tell you what the value is - then measure the unknown ones.
It involves making a little jig, but it would be simple enough.
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea - but I don't have any spares to measure against.
 
Least its easy to change a guide. If it was my bike, it would be all new guides, seals, and valves. Have the seats cut and then figure out what shims youll need. Its not gonna be a cheap rebuild but it will be the last it will need if you keep up the adjustments on schedule.
 
in my "parts hunting" I came across some advice:
"With the keepers and upper retainer installed on the valve make note of how much the keeper sticks up past the top of the upper retainer. This portion of the keeper is basically unused excess material and there may be enough there that you can grind it down a bit to get the top of the keepers even with or below the top of the valve stem. I ran my GS-750 engine that way for years with turbo cams and had no problems with it."

I think it's do-able. Any reasons this is a "bad idea" ?
 
The keepers are supposed to be below the top of the valve stems if everything with the valve and seats is within specs. Somethings amiss and It needs to be found. Go to Bikecliffs website and get a real manual. Clymers and Haynes are not the best repair manuals. And yes the keepers do stick a tad past the top of the spring retainer cap and they are supposed to.....but not stick above or impeed the top of the valve stems like what you are showing.
 
Hard to tell from the pic but are those keepers snug in the valve grooves? The grooves look a bit wide.
 
you have veerrrry good eyes sir.

My engine guy also said he didn't like how they moved up/down abit more than he is used to. ( He does all the shop work for local Napa, in his own garage. he does 2-3 auto heads a week. )

I have now flip-flopped back to "get another head or engine" - and found a 1980 G motor ... in Buffalo NY :mad: .... ROAD TRIP !!!
 
If ya go to Buffalo, you're going to go right by where I live- about 1/4 mile north of the Thruway. Nearest exit is about 2 miles away.
Feel free to stop by and look over the spare head I have. We can tear it down on the spot if you're interested.
 
My PM response yesterday didn't go thru. I'll try again.
Sorry 'bout that!
 
Follow-up from trip to Buffalo !!!
I bought the head from theDoktor- (already bead blasted- Thank you ! )
Now I can compare -"stock" vs "wrong"
and realized someone gave my head a crazy-angle valve job so the valves sit down further in the pockets. ( looking at heads upside down).
That's why someone had to "tip" the valves. they took about .030" off !
It's hard to see the exhaust seat angle- almost looks like they gave them a radius instead of multi-angles.
And the "port" job I think is just a polish job.
Oh well... at least now I know what I have, and YES ... I did buy another complete GS1000G motor while in Buffalo. Fit in the trunk of my Civic without drama !
 
The valve tips have been ground to get proper shim clearance after a valve job. We have a fixture that allows us to grind the keepers so that they are below the tops of the valves. New valves won't help as they will be too long and would have to be ground down just like your old ones.

Setting that head up correctly is easy for a shop like ours. Not sure of any in your area.
 
as Brendan W noticed... the keepers are shot. And the valves are now too short. and someone got SOOOO aggressive with a mega-angle valve job that the faces of the valves are actually flush with the surrounding dome of the head. So the head is shot too. (I'll try for pics tomorrow)

I'm rebuilding with head / valves / keepers from theDoktor, using my Web cams and springs. waiting on OEM head gasket and cover gasket and rubber cam plugs. And for warm weather to continue painting !!!
Anyone have a set of egg and rectangle o-rings they can spare?
 
Here's pics to show what someone did to my head. Note how the valve sits --in-- the seat, not on top of it.



and the "new" head I'm using

 
Glad my old spare head will work for you.:cool:
I can't believe how far that valve is pocketed into the seat! By the time the valves and keepers were shortened enough to be able to shim the valves, there probably wasn't much left of the keepers. And what did the deep recessing of the valves do to the flow? Any head porting experts want to chime in?
 
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