Weird charging problems

[Speedo]

psyguy - as our theoretical discussions continue, meanwhile for you (and me as well), the best thing to do is to
a)do the coil mod, and

b)test the voltage of the wire your RR sense wire is spliced to. as you say, it needs to be close to 12v. I'm guessing you will be unpleasantly surprised (but maybe not....test it). If voltage is low with current (pun intended) connection, then

c) change sense wire connection to coil mod switched "hot" going to coils. Virtually gaurenteed to be really close to 12v due to the added relay. That is route I'm going with mine (as soon as my new used RR arrives).

 

[Matchless]

matchless, i had a look at the coil relay mod on your site. would you be able to send me a bigger picture of your setup with the new fusebox? i'm thinking if i need two new fuses (coil relay and the RR wire) and a take off point for the coil relay + wire, i may as well look at upgrading the fuse box at the same time (and have all the fuses in one place and of one type only).

Psyguy,
You need a fuse block with about 8 fuses, blade type fuses. On my site, I think page two, there is a picture "New Fuse box fitted" It was taken before I redid my wiring.

You can now divide the new fuses up into a commoned group of switched and another group of non switched fuses as per what you have working and what other upgrades you intend doing later.

You need to buy one that is easy to common up, 2 or 3 of the fuses and then the same for the other 5 or 6. I could only find some with spade terminals and ended up addisionally soldering each spade terminal to the lug on the fuse box (this is important to make it stay there permanently and give a good contact).

The commoning was done on one side with a heavy bit of solid copper wire and the lugs bent at right angles, except the one for the wire out to the ignition and the other back from the ignition, all soldered. I made a small backing plate to bring mounting holes same as old fuse box, bent a lip up on the commoning side to protect it and filled that little furrow with Silicon rubber, covering the commoned out parts fully.

Try to retain the existing wire in the reddish brown sleeving from the battery to the fuse box. This is a safety feature and can be called a sacrificial wire, it functions as a fusable link if you short the fusebox to ground before any of the fuses.

Additional fuses now may be:
Unswitched accessory jack also use for battery tender.
Unswitched direct feed to new coil relay (relay contacts to coil).
Unswitched direct feed to new horn relay (relay contacts to coil).
Unswitched for R/R (replacing your inline fuse)


If you need any more detail feel free to PM me.

 

[posplayr]

please forgive me for showing the double feemale bullet connector, i didn't mean to offend anyone

If you dont get rid of it v.s. just hiding it you will be offended by your GS charging system (R/R and stator) buring up in the next 6 months after you move that connector a little and it comes loose.

 

[Steve]

The question is if you hook the RR sense wire direct to battery, will it drain the battery? I think not. While bike ig switch is off, RR will do nothing. While on, RR will regulate stator output to reference voltage it "sees" from the sense wire. If sense wire is hooked direct to battery positive, as long as battery is 12v or over, sense wire will tell RR not to allow stator current to charge since battery is good/full.

Most of that is true, but there is one little detail missing.

The stock r/r is a passive device. It takes the AC from the stator, chops it into DC, then regulates by shunting excess. If there is nothing coming in, there is nothing going out. The replacement r/r that has a 'sense' wire is more of an active device. The 'sense' wire does not turn the r/r off, it just gives it a signal to show how much to regulate. While it is sensing, which it will do constantly, if connected to the battery, it will be telling the r/r to increase voltage. Since there is nothing coming in from the stator, there is nothing to increase, but it keeps trying. THAT is what will drain your battery. If your 'sense' wire is connected to a switched wire, it won't be drawing that little bit of current.

Think of it another way. You have a transistor radio in your hand and you can change the volume to your preference. They shut down the transmitter, so you turn up the volume knob so you can hear it. Nothing coming in from the transmitter, so there is nothing to adjust and your battery goes dead in the process.

.

 

[posplayr]

Most of that is true, but there is one little detail missing.

The stock r/r is a passive device. It takes the AC from the stator, chops it into DC, then regulates by shunting excess. If there is nothing coming in, there is nothing going out. The replacement r/r that has a 'sense' wire is more of an active device. The 'sense' wire does not turn the r/r off, it just gives it a signal to show how much to regulate. While it is sensing, which it will do constantly, if connected to the battery, it will be telling the r/r to increase voltage. Since there is nothing coming in from the stator, there is nothing to increase, but it keeps trying. THAT is what will drain your battery. If your 'sense' wire is connected to a switched wire, it won't be drawing that little bit of current.

Think of it another way. You have a transistor radio in your hand and you can change the volume to your preference. They shut down the transmitter, so you turn up the volume knob so you can hear it. Nothing coming in from the transmitter, so there is nothing to adjust and your battery goes dead in the process.

.

The R/R sense wire has some finite input resistance (resistance to ground). For example, there may just be a simple voltage divider from the sense voltage to compare to an internal Zener reference voltage. That voltage divider will sink current whether the stator is charging or not.

If someone had the time they could put an ohm meter on it (sense to ground), measure the resistance, figure the current a 12V sense point would create and estimate how long that current would take to bleed down the battery.

 

[Steve]

Yep, you and I (and a few others) understand the internal workings, I was just trying to keep it simple for those that don't.

.

 

[posplayr]

Yep, you and I (and a few others) understand the internal workings, I was just trying to keep it simple for those that don't.

.

Yep one of the hardest parts is knowing who your audience is

 

[Guest]

Y'all need to talk down to us yardbirds.

 

[49er]

Y'all need to talk down to us yardbirds.

Agree with ya Bill. These auto/mc sparkies have their heads in the ether.

 

[posplayr]

Y'all need to talk down to us yardbirds.

Agree with ya Bill. These auto/mc sparkies have their heads in the ether.

Sounds like someone did not do to good in "Sparks and Magic" class.

 

[Steve]

Sounds like someone did not do to good in "Sparks and Magic" class.

Tain't no such thing as "Sparks and Magic"




It's all SMOKE.

.

 

[Guest]

i have rewired and installed a new fuse box and cleaned all connections (yet again).
i got the charging voltage down by 0.3V.

it now reads:
14.7V with lights OFF
15.3V with lights ON

is 15.3V still too high?

other than replacing both handlebars switches i don't think i can bring the voltage drop at the sense wire down any further. any suggestions?

 

[mighty13d]

If someone had the time they could put an ohm meter on it (sense to ground), measure the resistance, figure the current a 12V sense point would create and estimate how long that current would take to bleed down the battery.

Why not just make sure the R/R is grounded to the battery like is a suggested mod and then connect a meter between the sense wire and the positive terminal on the batter? (with the bike off) If there is a reading, then the R/R is going to drain the battery. Period. If it's 0, then the R/R isn't going to. Pretty straight forward test.

 

[almarconi]

I would suggest swapping the R/R with a stock suzuki R/R and see what voltages you get. IMHO that much voltage is going to cook your battery.

 

[Matchless]

i have rewired and installed a new fuse box and cleaned all connections (yet again).
i got the charging voltage down by 0.3V.

it now reads:
14.7V with lights OFF
15.3V with lights ON

is 15.3V still too high?

other than replacing both handlebars switches i don't think i can bring the voltage drop at the sense wire down any further. any suggestions?

Psyguy,
I may have missed your reply, but what is the voltage if the sense wire is connected directly to the battery, temporary just for a test?
You should not be going via any handlebar switches only the ignition switch where it returns to the fusebox - Orange wire.

 

[Guest]

Psyguy,
I may have missed your reply, but what is the voltage if the sense wire is connected directly to the battery, temporary just for a test?
You should not be going via any handlebar switches only the ignition switch where it returns to the fusebox - Orange wire.

1. with the sense wire connected directly to the batt positive:
tested at 2000rpm (charging measured at the battery):

- headlight OFF = 14.30V
- headlight ON = 14.15V


2. with the sense wire on the main (orange) switched wire:

- headlight OFF = 14.7V
- headlight ON = 15.3V


i was referring to the handlebars switches asuming they would be a major contribution to the voltage drop at the sense wire when i turn the headlight ON

 

[Speedo]

psyguy - good test. those readings suggest that whatever wire (orange or whatever) you have the sense wire connected to has low voltage and therefore making the RR think the battery needs more voltage than it really does. The sense to batt+ is proof. Test the voltage you get on orange wire where the rr sense wire is currently (pun intended) connected. I but you get like 9 or 10v just like I did on my old bike.

I would be VERY interested in seeing test results as Mighty13d suggested because I myself am still skeptical that hooking sense wire direct to batt would drain it (so is ShirazDrum btw). I may just have to do the test once my new RR arrives just to satisfy my own doubt/curiosity.

IN ANY CASE, find a wire with higher voltage to hook rr sense wire to and I bet you are "good to go". Have you done the "coil relay mod"? The hot to coils off the relay would be a perfect candidate: switched direct from battery, with presumably a new wire, and minimal voltage drop (mine reads 11.9v for reference compared to 9.1v that my orange brake light wired that rr sense was connected to previously).

Hope this helps. Keep us posted!

 

[savy453]

charging

charging

when the engine is not running k/o what is your total amperage draw ?

 

[lucabond]

I have read the whole post and know you have all new spade connectors but in my opinion even those can be a poor choice. I did the same thing when I first replaced my RR. Everything worked fine but before going on a trip i looked everything over and found my new spade connectors were turning brown from heat. So either i did a bad crimp job or used poor quality connectors either way they didn't last. i cut them all out and soldered all the connections after that.
I have found if you touch the wires on either side of a connector and feel a temperature difference between the wires the connection is a poor 1 and should be replaced. Just my 2 cents. Good luck

 

[Guest]

when the engine is not running k/o what is your total amperage draw ?

9AMP or so, i posted these results earlier