Weird charging problems

[Guest]

i'm bringing this summary here from an older thread that is too difficult to follow due to its length:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=146155








the symptom:

• charging OK with no load (14.7V at 5k rpm)
• charging NOT OK when the headlight is ON (or when i connect a 55W light bulb directly to the battery) - the voltage starts slowly dropping to under 15.5V

the history:


i first noticed there is a problem when the battery unexpectedly went flat on a ride and i couldn't start the bike. prior to this i had been going only for short rides and my battery is always on the battery minder and fully charged so it is likely that i have not noticed the problem for a while as the battery had no time to go flat over only a short ride. at the time the conclusion from the testing was that the RR must have gone bad so i got a new one (used) 6-wire RR from duaneage that he has tested so the asumption is that the RR is now OK.


current findings:

• the stator checks out ok at 85+V on all 3 phases
• the battery has been tested by a car electritian and it is ok for voltage, load test and electrolity specific gravity
• all the relevant connections are new spade connectors
• RR is wired directly to the battery with the sense wire spliced into the main switched wire
• the system has been tested with the engine just warmed up from cold as well as fully hot
• also tested during a few hours ride and the symptoms are consistent over time
• the charging voltage is roughly equal (+/- 0.3V) when tested with either one of the 3 phases disconnected
• i have now done testing using a car battery and the results are still the same

 

[Matchless]

Psyguy,
Apologies, I do not want to derail the proving process, but you seem to have a very interesting (frustating) problem here it seems.
The R/R is OK
The wiring is OK
Connections are OK
Battery is OK
Headlight is OK
Routed AC wire via headlight switch is bypassed
Stator tests for voltage shows OK, but..
Maximum current supply from stator has not been proven conclusively


If your stator is a 180W unit it should be able to supply you with at least 15 Amps. Your headlight (55 W) adding another 4-5 Amps when its on tells me you are exceeding the maximum of 15 Amps total current supply, thus pulling the current excess from the battery.

I would at this stage seriously think of pulling the stator cover and give the stator a mk1 eyeball check.

Good luck
__________________

 

[Steve]

Got anything else there that is 55W other than the orginal headlight and switch? I was thinking that you could use it as a 55W load direct to battery instead of the headlight. This would eliminate the headlight, switch, that section of wiring, etc.

This was already addressed and answered:

the symptom:
charging OK with no load (14.7V at 5k rpm)
charging NOT OK when the headlight is ON (or when i connect a 55W light bulb directly to the battery) - the voltage starts slowly dropping

The mystery continues.

.

 

[Nessism]

Are you sending the stator outputs into the main harness or wiring direct to the R/R? Piping the output straight into the R/R typically solves all issues related to the old harness developing resistance in the connectors, fuse block, etc. For the R/R outputs run the pos wire straight to the battery with a 15 A fuse in-line and split the ground and run one to the battery and another to the frame. If there is still a problem, you either have a bad stator, R/R, or battery.

 

[posplayr]

i'm bringing this summary here from an older thread that is too difficult to follow due to its length:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=146155








the symptom:

• charging OK with no load (14.7V at 5k rpm)
• charging NOT OK when the headlight is ON (or when i connect a 55W light bulb directly to the battery) - the voltage starts slowly dropping

the history:


i first noticed there is a problem when the battery unexpectedly went flat on a ride and i couldn't start the bike. prior to this i had been going only for short rides and my battery is always on the battery minder and fully charged so it is likely that i have not noticed the problem for a while as the battery had no time to go flat over only a short ride. at the time the conclusion from the testing was that the RR must have gone bad so i got a new one (used) 6-wire RR from duaneage that he has tested so the asumption is that the RR is now OK.


current findings:

• the stator checks out ok at 85+V on all 3 phases
• the battery holds charge at 12.5V with the ignition on for a few minutes
• all the relevant connections are new spade connectors
• RR is wired directly to the battery with the sense wire spliced into the main switched wire
• the system has been tested with the engine just warmed up from cold as well as fully hot
• also tested during a few hours ride and the symptoms are consistent over time
• the charging voltage is roughly equal (+/- 0.3V) when tested with either one of the 3 phases disconnected
• i have now done testing using a car battery and the results are still the same

I stopped reading the original thread a while back, and it still seems like you have a problem. From what i recall it sounded like a temeperature sensetivity. Also the symptoms you describe are not possible so you are missing something. Specifically:

Under normal conditions, it is not possible for a good battery to discharge when there is over 13.0V at the terminals of the battery.

So I have to question some of the test results as being incomplete because battery's with more than 13.0V on them can not discharge. If you can get back to a discharging case, then you will find that you dont have more than 13 volts at the battery and you probably have less than 13V at the R/R. If you can get to the bottom of this simple relationship perhaps you wil have a clue as to what is going on.

Jim

 

[flyingace]

I didn't read the entire thread, so this is probably an ignorant response. But it sounds all the world to me that your battery can't hold a charge. Your light sucks voltage out of the battery faster than it can retain the voltage it receives.

If you've replaced the battery with a new good quality unit, please disregard. You've got me stumped.

 

[Guest]

guys, i tried to do a full summary so we wouldn't repeat things and clog the thread again. i know i might have missed someting while testing so i've repeated the tests at different times. my question is what you would do if faced with a similar situation - i.e. i have gone through the usual testing procedure and done all the right things yet the problem persists...


gs1100gk -
dunno if the stator is original, but it certainly looks like an original part.
as for the load - the symptoms are the same when i connect a 55w bulb DIRECTLY to the batt and bypass the headlight loop, switches etc.


nessism -
yes, all 3 phases directly into the RR


posplayr -
i don't understand what you mean, could you please explain? - i re-tested the system with a car battery and symptoms are the same. the car battery i have not tested in any way...but my car starts all right every time...are you saying that this battery may be shot?
also, i tested the system with just warmed up from cold as well as during fully hot and over a few hours ride - and the symptoms are the same


matchless -
bakalorz -
thanks guys, i'll test the load/current at the 3 circuits with the amp meter next, that's one thing i have not done yet!

 

[posplayr]

posplayr -
i don't understand what you mean, could you please explain? - i re-tested the system with a car battery and symptoms are the same. the car battery i have not tested in any way...but my car starts all right every time...are you saying that this battery may be shot?
also, i tested the system with just warmed up from cold as well as during fully hot and over a few hours ride - and the symptoms are the same


!

Is this your symptom hot or cold?

the symptom:

• charging OK with no load (14.7V at 5k rpm)
• charging NOT OK when the headlight is ON (or when i connect a 55W light bulb directly to the battery) - the voltage starts slowly dropping

If it is and you have not added any significant additional loads then we would assume that the total demand has not increased. However a check with a current prope would validate that thesis.

Then you should be able to measure the voltages at the battery and the R/R when your are discharging. This is really all you need to diagnose the problem to the next step. That step is if the voltages across the R/R and across the battery are essentially the same 12.8-13.0v at 5000 RPM then the demand is too high for the supply. Either too much demand (extra loads some where) or insufficent supply (stator is malfunctioning at high load despite the no load tests).

STEP 1:
My point is very simple, go back to the basic issue. Measure the battery and R/R voltages at load and/or temperature when you think your are discharging. Your prior description seems to indicate that there is nothing wrong when you are discharging.

STEP #2 will follow from the results of step #1

 

[argonsagas]

First, the R/R box itself should have a good ground to the battery and/or frame.
Battery terminals and cable connections must be clean.



The R/R is supposed to detect voltage and current draw differences and then compensate for them by permitting more or less electricity to flow upwards from the stator, in order to mtaintain battery strength/voltage.

If it fails to detect these differences, then the charging ability will slowly degrade and voltage will be lost as draw/supply to meet needs defaults to the battery.

It appears your stator is putting out what it should but your R/R is not dealing with that output correctly and is not sensing voltage differences at all.

This leaves:
the sense wire being incorrectly positioned / and or connected

the sense wire being defective

or,

the R/R is poorly grounded, internally faulty or both



There is one other possibility and that would be within the stator, as it may be capable of putting out voltage, but not amperage. This can come from loose or faulty connections, undersize wire, as previously mentioned, but more likely from loss of insulation between windings that allows voltage to build normally, but transfers current within the windings when load is encountered, very similar in effect to a short, This permits the electricity to move over a shorter distance within the windings, and thus deliver less power than expected.

Abrasion would be the expected culprit, as wires that rub against each other will lose insulation quickly, as it is only a thin paint film. There is very little separation at any time so, with no load, voltage may appear fine, but adding load will change heat and expansion conditions and the circuit change can then occur.

 

[Guest]

i have tested the load / current draw of the 3 circuits and they are as follows:

ignition: 1.7A
pilot lights: 0.8A
head/tail lights: 5.1A


i'll go back to basics and test the voltage at 5000rpm steady cruise to see the exact voltage drop when the headlight is on, and post the results.

 

[posplayr]

i have tested the load / current draw of the 3 circuits and they are as follows:

ignition: 1.7V
pilot lights: 0.8A
head/tail lights: 5.1V


i'll go back to basics and test the voltage at 5000rpm steady cruise to see the exact voltage drop when the headlight is on, and post the results.

I hope U mean Amps for all those measurements?

Also if you put a clamp directly on the R/R (+) output you will be measuring total load which is the only thing important. Teh stator really doesnt care where the power is going; it is total power.

 

[Guest]

lol, yes i meant "amps"

i didn't want to measure the total load as i wasn't sure if it might exceed 10A and my amp-meter couldn't handle it

 

[bakalorz]

i have tested the load / current draw of the 3 circuits and they are as follows:

ignition: 1.7A
pilot lights: 0.8A
head/tail lights: 5.1A


i'll go back to basics and test the voltage at 5000rpm steady cruise to see the exact voltage drop when the headlight is on, and post the results.

Was the ignition 1.7 amps with the engine running ?
(I never tested mine, but was under the impression that it should be about 8 amps with the engine running, have no idea what it is stopped)
Nevertheless, those readings indicate no weak shorts to ground after those fuses.

To check for a soft short to ground after the main fuse , but before the 3 fuses, you could remove the main fuse and check the amps across it.
Should be the sum of those 3 above ...

Go ahead and try it, but I doubt you'll find anything there.

I hate to say it, but its starting to sound like a stator that can provide 80 volts but just can't provide the current.
Or perhaps weak magnets in the rotor like Duane said, although I would have thought that would have kept you from getting the 80 volts.

 

[Guest]

Was the ignition 1.7 amps with the engine running ?

yes. and it would drop a little as i added throttle.

 

[almarconi]

Have you tried a new battery yet ?

 

[Matchless]

Psyguy,
Have you visually eyeballed the stator since this problem started? Usually burnt windings can easily be seen.

Just a comment, if you test for load current with the bike running, keep the wires from the stator disconnected so that full load is drawn from the battery and that is measured. You most probably have been doing that.

Good luck!

 

[Guest]

Have you visually eyeballed the stator since this problem started? Usually burnt windings can easily be seen.

no, not yet. want to test it one more time while riding to get detailed data over time, before i have to drain the oil to look at the stator...

Just a comment, if you test for load current with the bike running, keep the wires from the stator disconnected so that full load is drawn from the battery and that is measured. You most probably have been doing that.

nope, didn't occur to me to disconnect the stator i'm a novice at the lektrix

 

[Matchless]

You do not need to drain the oil, just lean the bike over a bit to the right and no oil will come out except a spoonfull or so and you can pull the cover easily.

 

[Steve]

As Matchless said, no need to drain the oil.

Simply put the bike on the centerstand, tip it to the right, slip a 2x4 under the left pad of the centerstand.
Here is how it sits. Plenty stable.

.

 

[Guest]

so, i tested the system again, while riding. the results are as follows:

• headlight OFF - voltage = 14.7V-14.8V at any rpm between 2k-5k rpm, voltage steady over 5 mins of testing
• headlight ON - at constant 5k rpm - voltage immediately drops to 14.2V and keeps dropping over the next 10 minutes to 12.5V then stabilizes
• in the city riding (variable rpms) over the next 20 minutes the voltage dropped to 12.2V-12.3V

then i ran out of time for testing