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why two kinds of washers on 1150 head bolts?

skip

skip

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The 1150 head has two kinds of washers and bolts. cylinders 1&4 have copper washers and acorn style nuts on the cyinder studs. cylinders 2&3 have steel washers and nuts that arn't acorn style. I had an oil leak where the oil was going under the metal washer on cylinder 2 and traveling down the stud. I changed cylinder 2 and 3 over to copper washers and re- tourqed them. The leak has dissapeared so far ( i only have 50 miles since doing it) but my question is this.................... why do they have two kinds of washers and nuts? ( they all have the same tourque value) can I do any harm by changing the metal washers over to copper like the other cylinders? ...........thanks..........................................skip
 
Skip when you get time look at a layout of the oiling system. One side of the engine(studs) are used for a oil galley to the head and the other side for a return. Thats the reason for the copper washers. I would not use the copper anywhere but on the oil galley studs. I have seen them flare out and get to big ...then not torqueing down correctly. I had terrible problems with leaking head gaskets when we ran pro mod...cured it by having head gaskets made with GSXR size stud holes...then getting a special reemer made and counter boring my heads ...then using GXSR head cylinder o-rings. I had to grind out the inside lip(metal) of the o-rings so I had enough clearance for oil to flow. I ran huge cylinder studs.
 
Both front and rear stud channels for cylinders 1 & 4 are open to oil. The feed is up the inlet side stud hole, then across through the head through the exhaust side stud hole, and into two galleries, one below each camshaft.

The return is down the cam chain slot.

The copper washers are there because they seal better against the oil. It is sometimes advised that you heat them to blue with a gas torch to anneal them before replacing them. They harden with age and vibration.

The dome nuts are also to seal against the oil - and, I imagine, for appearance. The dome nuts have a broad seat to spread the load over the copper washer, the nuts for the other studs are narrower, and not truly flat as I recall, and can load up the inner edge of the copper washer so it deforms.

Kim
 
Yes I stand corrected on the return...thats what happens when you don`t proof read what ya type. :oops:
 
thanks kim and chris, but I dont understand why it would be bad to use the copper washers on the other studs. if it is strong enough to handle the tourque on cylinder 1@4 why not 2@3? my oil leak was caused by the metal washers not sealing the oil out wich according to Kim is what the copper washers are designed to do. I dont want to switch back to the metal washer and get that oil leak back again. but I dont want to hurt anything either................................skip
 
Honestly Skip with new copper washers I don`t see what it would hurt. They are real bad to compress and flare out. I hope your oil leak is not something else.
 
the oil leak was definitly coming down the#2 stud and then blowing around the motor, I used an oil ultraviolet mechanics die and light ,it turns the oil floresent yellow when you hold the light on it. I watched the leak develop and run down the stud. I did use new copper washers, and after 50 miles so far no leak . tommorrow im gonna ride it a little farther and a lot harder once again thanks for the help and ill let you know if anythig develops
 
Hello,
This thread is quite old, lets?s see if you guys remember what it was all about.

I have experienced the exact same problem as Skip. Oil was coming down the studs,
and it would then spread across the engine. I retorqued the head, which did not help.
Changed the center nut and washers only, since they where damaged, which didn't
help either. I then decided to live with the problem for the remaining month of the bike
driving season. However, I now have the engine disassembled and I wonder:

1: What studs are supposed to have copper washers vs steel washers on the 1150 head?

2: Is it ok, (or even advisable), to put copper washers on all of them ?

3: How did it turn out on your bike, Skip ?

/ Mikael
 
From what I know the outer two studs on cyl 1 & 4 are the ones that use the copper washers to seal the oil passages the rest use the steel washer
 
skip said:
the oil leak was definitly coming down the#2 stud and then blowing around the motor, I used an oil ultraviolet mechanics die and light ,it turns the oil floresent yellow when you hold the light on it. I watched the leak develop and run down the stud. I did use new copper washers, and after 50 miles so far no leak . tommorrow im gonna ride it a little farther and a lot harder once again thanks for the help and ill let you know if anythig develops
Click to expand...
Skip
Hello and thanks for the thread,do you remember if this "all copper washer"method ever worked?Im chasing down a leak of the same nature.Any input would be wonderfull.
 
Ray
This the thread i was talking about,Yes Im going to give it a shot,after ordering and paying Schnitz for the copper washers they call and tell me 2 weeks.Errr know a faster way?dont wanna use the hardware store ..lol..
 
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