Wiring Master Needed!!!

[txironhead]

What do you think??? Am i doomed to have a giant paperweight sitting in my front yard????](*,)

Considering I had to fix the stator, regulator and starter clutch on my bike and replace the blinkers the PO had cut out (literally cut, the wires were just hanging loose about 4" past the connectors) and tons of misc. other problems, you have a much better chance of being on the road before I am.

Wiring is one of the most frustrating things in the world, but you seem to have a pretty good grasp of it. Even if you have to replace the entire harness, it's still worth it to fix.

The starter solenoid is nothing but an electronically-activated switch, if you bridge the two main connectors it should turn the bike over or at least click. If it doesn't, it's bad. Another way to test it is to take the actuator wire (the small one) and run a jumper wire from it directly to the positive battery terminal. If it doesn't click, the solenoid's bad. If it does click but the bike doesn't turn over, you may have fried the starter. Rebuilding them is fairly easy, just go to stockersstarters.com and get a rebuild kit. If you don't want to mess with it, you can get a rebuilt one from him as well.

 

[rustybronco]

Check the grounds.

 

[Guest]

Darci, you're doing GREAT! You realize that you are doing far more than making the horn work; you are reversing almost 30 years of entropy.

On reading the thread, you said that the wires to the horn were fused together back to where they joined the main harness.

That's why I have "issues" with statements like:

THERE IS PROBABLY NOTHING WRONG WITH THE WIRING HARNESS ITSELF...

...so that should NOT be your main focus, not until we have GOOD reason to suspect otherwise. Working WITHIN a wiring harness is a PAIN, so the odds are excellent that no one has tampered with it...

If the wires are melted together as they come out of the harness, how far back IN the harness does the damage extend?

If the bike had been starting, I wouldn't expect the solenoid would fail while you were fixing the wiring.

If it all seems too much, give it a break, relax, and study the wiring diagram at your leisure. I've found that giving particular wires in the harness names, such as "switched power bus" for the line that gets 12V only when the ignition is on, helps me understand the system.

 

[Darci]

Part 3: Wiring Master Needed

Part 3: Wiring Master Needed

Ok, well, i have checked all the grounds. Had some really dirty connections, cleaned them all up and now my relay is clicking normally. However, still no start. I took the starter cover off (the top one) and found the post that has the wire running from the starter itself to the ground side of the relay. I cleaned this post and connector and tried to start the bike and nothing.

I tried "jumping" the relay and got nothing..just a little spark. I used a 4 gage wire as well as a screwdriver and nothing.

Now, My question is, how do I jump the starter. Do I take a jumper cable from the negative post on the batter and hook it up to that "tab" that is sticking up from the body of the starter?

Also, Shouldn't there be a positive wire going from the relay to the starter???

On the picture of the relay below, the "negative" post I am talking about is the one with the wire disconnected....

 

[Steve]

Your "negative" wire, is actually another positive. That is the positive wire to the starter. The starter is then grounded through the engine and chassis, then a large wire back to the battery. The big wire that is still connected to the solenoid goes straight to the battery, right?

To "jump" the solenoid (it's just a heavy-duty, remote-control switch), use a jumper wire to connect the yellow/green wire (the one with the dirty terminal) to the big wire that is still connected (the battery wire). If the solenoid is good, the terminal that is currently disconnected will become live. If you have the other cable connected to it, the starter should turn.

Now, if that works, but your button still does not start it, use your test light to verify the starter button. If you connect the ground of your test light to the chassis and touch the probe to the yellow/green wire at the solenoid, the light should come on when you press the starter button. You may need a helper to do this unless your clutch safety switch has been disabled or you connect your test light to the solenoid with a jumper wire. If you get no power at the yellow/green wire, check the connections closer to the right handgrip to make sure they are good. There should be a connector near the steering stem that leads to the right grip. There should be a wire that is live when the key is on, and another that becomes live when the starter button is pressed. Hopefully you have a wiring diagram that will tell you what color wires to look for.


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[txironhead]

A new solenoid would probably be a good idea anyway, the case on that one is cracked and it's only a matter of time before it goes out.

If you run a heavy-gauge wire from the terminal of the starter to the positive battery terminal you'll be able to tell if your starter's any good. Just a quick touch to see if it spins. If it doesn't with a direct connection you need to rebuild the starter or get a new one.

Regardless of whether or not the solenoid's good, switch is good, etc., the solenoid has a direct connection to the battery. Jumpering the two big terminals on the solenoid should have turned the engine over. Sounds like you may need to give Stocker's Starters a call.

www.stockersstarters.com

 

[rustybronco]

Darci, as steve said the solenoid is a big switch just like a light switch in your house, inside of it are two contacts (the large bolts you see sticking out) a coil winding that is operated by the small wire (the white with a green tracer) and grounded by where it the solenoid bolts to the frame. on the end of the "pull down" coil is a round copper disk the "connects" the two large bolts together when you push the starter button. if you jump the two large terminals on the starter solenoid with a screw driver (just like the round disk does) and the starter doesn't turn (and all the other connections, wires going to the starter are in good condition) take the cover off of the starter and tap the starter with a small hammer a few and see if it will spin then, if it still doesn't spin see txironhead's comments or you could try fixing the starter yourself !

and I agree, junk the solenoid...

Glad to see someone else with a 78 cb750f.

 

[Steve]

Ya know? I didn't even notice the "crack" in the solenoid.

I was more concerned about getting the electricity flowing and did not even see it. With the amount of corrosion already on the other terminals and what I can see through the "crack", I would really suspect the terminal contacts inside. A source for a replacement might surprise you. Lowe's, Farm & Fleet, Auto Zone. Auto Zone can get you a Ford solenoid. Definitely heavy-duty enough, but larger than you need. Any other place that sells or services lawn tractors should have a replacement solenoid that should fit. Lots cheaper than Suzuki, too. \\/


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[argonsagas]

Given the multitude of problems affecting the bike, I would feel very strongly inclined to pull apart the harness.

Once inside the harness you will find that the orange/green wires are not constant front-to-back but midway through the harness they are spliced with two other circuits, and the horn "live" wires run from that splice.

Your horn wires melted, and they are connected directly to the orange/green wires inside the harness, so it seems more than possible that damage went into the harness.

If there is ANY damage inside it, then your chances of long-term riding pleasure are limited by the unknown factor of WHEN the wiring will fail, as it will surely do that.


BTW you might be able to rescue your dead horn(s)....repeat might.

Set one down on its edge and rap the edge sharply with a small hammer. ONCE.

Spray it liberally with penetrating oil.

Then undo the lock nut and move the set screw/bolt back and forth.

Now try connecting it to the battery, as before. Make a few small adjustments to the set screw and see what happens.

You may get nothing, or only a little sound. If you get any sound then try a couple more adjustments before giving up on it. You do not need a lot of twisting, just incremental ones.

Occasionally, this will restore a dead unit to a fully-functioning horn.

 

[Darci]

Given the multitude of problems affecting the bike, I would feel very strongly inclined to pull apart the harness.

Once inside the harness you will find that the orange/green wires are not constant front-to-back but midway through the harness they are spliced with two other circuits, and the horn "live" wires run from that splice.

Your horn wires melted, and they are connected directly to the orange/green wires inside the harness, so it seems more than possible that damage went into the harness.

If there is ANY damage inside it, then your chances of long-term riding pleasure are limited by the unknown factor of WHEN the wiring will fail, as it will surely do that.


BTW you might be able to rescue your dead horn(s)....repeat might.

Set one down on its edge and rap the edge sharply with a small hammer. ONCE.

Spray it liberally with penetrating oil.

Then undo the lock nut and move the set screw/bolt back and forth.

Now try connecting it to the battery, as before. Make a few small adjustments to the set screw and see what happens.

You may get nothing, or only a little sound. If you get any sound then try a couple more adjustments before giving up on it. You do not need a lot of twisting, just incremental ones.

Occasionally, this will restore a dead unit to a fully-functioning horn.

hi Argonsagas...

Went through the harness...nothing was wrong...everything was good. Got the horn working, now, just gotta work on the starting problem.

Thanks!!! I appreciate the post!!! :-D

 

[Darci]

Darci, as steve said the solenoid is a big switch just like a light switch in your house, inside of it are two contacts (the large bolts you see sticking out) a coil winding that is operated by the small wire (the white with a green tracer) and grounded by where it the solenoid bolts to the frame. on the end of the "pull down" coil is a round copper disk the "connects" the two large bolts together when you push the starter button. if you jump the two large terminals on the starter solenoid with a screw driver (just like the round disk does) and the starter doesn't turn (and all the other connections, wires going to the starter are in good condition) take the cover off of the starter and tap the starter with a small hammer a few and see if it will spin then, if it still doesn't spin see txironhead's comments or you could try fixing the starter yourself !

and I agree, junk the solenoid...

Glad to see someone else with a 78 cb750f.

Hi Guys, thanks so much for the help. I'll try all of that tomorrow am as I have to work tonight. Out of curiosity, the yellow/green wire seems to be soldered to the relay...is this how it is supposed to be??

 

[txironhead]

From the factory, yes, it's soldered on there. If you end up with an aftermarket solenoid (lawn tractor, etc.) you will probably end up with two large terminals (battery + and starter +) and one or two small terminals. Just connect an eyelet style connector to the yellow/green wire and hook it up to either of the small terminals, I believe they will both activate the relay. Read any instructions that come with the relay just to be sure. You can even make an "adapter wire" that has a bullet connector on one end and the eyelet connector on the other in case you ever want to put a factory solenoid back on.

 

[Bikeman982]

I have simialr problem - no horn noise

I have simialr problem - no horn noise

My bike is a 1983 Suzuki GS750 and the horn does not make a noise. I don't have a O/G wire going to it, so that must have been rewired at one time. I have yet to trace it down. I suggest you also concentrate on your ignition switch - I would not want my bike started without a key - not good for anyone but thieves.

 

[Bikeman982]

How did you get the horn working?

How did you get the horn working?

My horn does not work - what did you do to fix yours?
As far as starting problems - I re-wired a 1978 Honda CX500 due to PO doing a serious meltdown on the wiring. Lots of wires were melted and the fuses were cut out. I started to replace bad wires and got so deep that I realized another main electrical harness was required. I got one from e-Bay and put it in but several connectors were different (donor harness was from another year). I ended up splicing in the connectors from the old harness and figuring out the wiring as I went. The bike did not start after everything was re-wired.
I took out the starter, but left the wires connected. Since the bike battery was dead, I connected a car battery to the bike and used it to check the starter. Nothing happened until I touched the starter to ground (the bike frame) and then it spun like crazy. I put the starter back in and the bike started up! I think the starter must have had a stuck solenoid or a bad ground or whatever, but now it works.
Might be like your bike, maybe different - worth a try.

 

[Darci]

My horn does not work - what did you do to fix yours?
As far as starting problems - I re-wired a 1978 Honda CX500 due to PO doing a serious meltdown on the wiring. Lots of wires were melted and the fuses were cut out. I started to replace bad wires and got so deep that I realized another main electrical harness was required. I got one from e-Bay and put it in but several connectors were different (donor harness was from another year). I ended up splicing in the connectors from the old harness and figuring out the wiring as I went. The bike did not start after everything was re-wired.
I took out the starter, but left the wires connected. Since the bike battery was dead, I connected a car battery to the bike and used it to check the starter. Nothing happened until I touched the starter to ground (the bike frame) and then it spun like crazy. I put the starter back in and the bike started up! I think the starter must have had a stuck solenoid or a bad ground or whatever, but now it works.
Might be like your bike, maybe different - worth a try.

Well in order to fix my horn, I had to fix all the other wiring problems starting with the two main "hot" wires that were melted together in the headlight bucket and work my way back from there. Thanks to the PO, who knows how long that had been that way. It was so bad that I had constant current going through the bike at all times!!!! Also, I had to get a new horn!!!

As for getting it started, I dragged the jumper cables from my car this morning and hooked up the battery to the starter and got nothing. Also, I was able to test my relay and that was bad to. I got a good relay from Lowes (a lawn tractor relay) and hooked it up...pressed the button, nothing...jumped the relay...nothing...Soooooooo now, I get to pull out the starter and rebuild it!!! Wooo hooo!!!

"Like sands through the hourglass, these are the day's of my life!!!!"\\/

 

[txironhead]

www.stockers.com

They have rebuilt starters and rebuild kits cheap. I've used them before and they're extremely helpful and high quality. Make sure that your armature is salvageable before ordering a kit. If the area the brushes contact is too worn down, you're going to need a new armature or starter. Clean everything with electrical parts cleaner and air pressure. Go ahead and replace the starter o-ring while you're at it. If you call the number on the Stocker's website, you'll probably get Stocker himself, and he's a great help with any questions you might have.

 

[rustybronco]

As for getting it started, I dragged the jumper cables from my car this morning and hooked up the battery to the starter and got nothing. Also, I was able to test my relay and that was bad to. I got a good relay from Lowes (a lawn tractor relay) and hooked it up...pressed the button, nothing...jumped the relay...nothing...Soooooooo now, I get to pull out the starter and rebuild it!!! Wooo hooo!!!

"Like sands through the hourglass, these are the day's of my life!!!!"\\/

on the relay you bought are their two large terminals and two smaller terminals, the two smaller terminals one should be +12v to actuate and one for ground,
on the three terminal style, two large terminals and one small +12v to actuate grounded through the housing where it bolts on.
don't forget to hook 12v up to the starter directly to test it when it's removed from the bike, just to be double sure before you rip into it

 

[rustybronco]

If the area the brushes contact is too worn down, you're going to need a new armature or starter.

One more thing don't forget to undercut the mica "insulator" between the copper contacts on the armature if needed, for that you can use a hacksaw blade with the sides of the teeth ground off to fit between the contacts or if you're very very careful, a dremmel.

 

[Jagir]

thanks all for the excellent sequence of this thread. It's already helped me quite a bit as I just found this:
View attachment 2438 at the end of a wire with lots of melted sections and bare wire exposed. :shock:

It's been a long summer with the bike mostly sitting (but getting shinier). Like Darci, wiring scares me silly.
I will be taking lots of breaks, "reading the wiring diagrams at my leisure" and will probably start a new post if I run into problems.

thanks again,
j

 

[rustybronco]

thanks all for the excellent sequence of this thread. It's already helped me quite a bit as I just found this:
View attachment 2438 at the end of a wire with lots of melted sections and bare wire exposed. :shock:

That there is a fine example of one of them there home made wiring re-pares...