Wurring sound? from trans or final drive?

[Buffalo Bill]

Looks like my only parts source is ebay salvage.
Ok, changed the gear oil and did another test ride.
The wurr comes on between 2000 to 3000 rpm in 4th and 5th gear only.
Decided to just ride it and monitor any change.

 

[Redman]

The problem I had (which doesn’t seem to be the symptoms you are describing) was that treaded end of the driven gear breaking off. Can be detected by reaching inside the boot, and can slide the two flanges (one on secondary, one on shaft, bolted together) back and forth about 3/8 - 1/2 an inch. It should only spin around with the shaft when shaft turns, but not slide back and forth at all.

was not going to confuse things with the posting of failure I had, since doesn’t seem to be what you are describing. But will see if I can find that posting and send you a link.

 

[Redman]

//////QUOTE

• Buffalo Bill has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

///////EndQUOTE

 

[Redman]

Looks like the Driven Shaft nut can be seen if the rubber sleeve is pulled back.

. . . . .

Not really, it is kinda inside the flange on the secondary and the flange on the shaft that are bolted together. You dont see it untill you unbolt those two flanges from each other, and pull off the swing arm.
Is More that I can say. . . . but lets better identify the specifics of your situation.

Eeessschh, I am not that much of a gearhead to be giving such advise. I only know a few things from having had a problem with these secondary gears.

 

[Redman]

Here is a PDF of a driven gear repair made on a 650. Question for the forum: does the 1100 fail in the same way as shown here? If it does, looking at the nut may not tell the story. I'm not sure how to test.

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/storagecliff/images/bevel_gear_shaft_repair_zooks.pdf

Yes.

ANd test by seeing if the flanges slide back and forth any (if threaded end broke the flanges will slide back and forth about 3/8th inch or a little more) and when it does that when running then the u-joint is not inline with the pivot point of the swingarm and then stuff is not just spinning it is kinda orbiting around.... or something like that.

Yes, That threaded shaft on the back of the driven gear can break off. And when unbolt the two flanges and pull back the swing arm, that nut can fall out on the floor, with the broken off threaded shaft in it. That was quite a sight when I saw that, and I really did not understand what I was seeing. But then I slowly came to understand it.
(And , oh, bye the way: I feel strange, me trying to explain something like this. I am not gear head.)



And that repair/modification described in the PDF is called "Zooks repair" (after the author of that pdf.)



BUt, we have yet to determine is this is BUffalo Bills problem. SO far has only stated a whiring sound.

 

[Redman]

On the jack:
Pulling the rubber sleeve back I see no bad. Minimal slack in final drive...
....
.....

That is what I said in 2017. Then Brian said "But can you push the flanges forward and back?" . . . .

I dont mean wheel and shaft spinning in forward and back as the rear wheel turns forward and back.... I mean slide the flanges (and ujoint) forward (toward front) on the spines and back (toward back of bike) on the spines. It should not. If it does, well, that is the broken off threaded end of the driven gear.

On mine, I had to get the rubber boot back further so I could get a couple fingers of one hand on one side and couple fingers of other hand other on other side, then push toward front bike and then toward back of bike. Then I could push the flanges (and ujoint) forward and back about 3/8th of inch. Brian said "that bad. Threaded shaft broken off the driven gear." I didn't really understand, but knew meant I was disassembling things further, so I did. . . . . then I understood better.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

But can you push the flanges forward and back. . . .

I dont mean wheel and shaft spinning in forward and back as the rear wheel turns forward and back.... I mean slide the flanges (and ujoint) forward (toward front) on the spines and back (toward back of bike) on the spines. It should not. If it does, well, that is the broken off threaded end of the driven gear.

I'll try that, but when I put my finger in there and spun the back wheel, it looked and sounded tight, no burn odor, no slack, no problemo.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

I am starting to feel something like this, I been wondering if the road pavement is developing washboard bumps like gravel roads do. Our local roads are way overdue for repaving, the State of Michigan ain't got no money.
From Redman:
"Now in recent weeks I have been noticing something of a small shutter sometime when let off the throttle. Happens more at higher rpm. Just a short little shutter, somewhat like ran over a mini-rumble strip, but not comming from the tires."
thread link: https://www.thegsresources.com/_for...-drive-indepth-experience&highlight=secondary

 

[GregT]

Looks like my only parts source is ebay salvage.
Ok, changed the gear oil and did another test ride.
The wurr comes on between 2000 to 3000 rpm in 4th and 5th gear only.
Decided to just ride it and monitor any change.

The points of highest torque loading. Bearing going bad is my pick now.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

The points of highest torque loading. Bearing going bad is my pick now.

Thanks Greg, any idea the likely bearing? There's 2 bearings on the driven gear pinion shaft.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

ebay parts

ebay parts

These are now available on ebay.
Looks like the shaft is broken off right?
No nut.

Should look like this:

 

[Buffalo Bill]

Pull the rubber boot off the front joint of the drive shaft - and see if you can move the universal joint forward and back. It's also possible you'll find the retaining nut sitting in there. They break the reduced diameter piece off the end of the secondary shaft - which is threaded for the retaining nut.

In the past i have pulled the assembly and drilled and tapped the exposed end for a large capscrew to do the same job. 14mm from memory.

Ok Greg, opened up the rubber again, put a screwdriver in there and yes the flange moves to the right easy. The shaft is broke off at the usual place.

 

[Redman]

These are now available on ebay.
Looks like the shaft is broken off right?
No nut.
.
..


Should look like this:
.
........





/QUOTE]

yes, is no nut because is no threaded shaft.

yes, has the threaded shaft and nut and flange (flange that bolts up to flange on ujoint)

 

[Redman]

Ok Greg, opened up the rubber again, put a screwdriver in there and yes the flange moves to the right easy. The shaft is broke off at the usual place.

okay.
now have identified the problem as being that threaded shaft broken off the driven secondary gear (same as I had in 2017).

option 1 (assuming want to fix it)
Replace the secondary gear set (or at least the driven gear). That requires a bunch of measurement and use of machinist die and other such stuff to check gear alignment(?) meshing(?) and then swap out shims …. or other machinist-head stuff that is beyound me.
will see if I can find the spare gears our fine friend from Quebec sent me in 2017.


option 2
the zook repair/modification as described in link someone posted earlier. Requires machine shop equipment. (This is the option that became available to
me in 2017, only because a fine GSR member then offered me such service. That member no longer active here.) (Anybody else,,,?)


>>> LaterNote;
Either way, if you want to fix it you are taking off the swingarm, and pulling out the secondary driven gear out the back of the engine. So start there.

.

 

[GregT]

At least you now know what it is. IMO repairing your existing parts is the best way out. All the shimming and preloads are set and known.
The center of the broken shaft is soft and can be drilled and tapped quite easily by a competent engineering shop. The size used depends on what tap sizes they have available. I used 14mm because i have it and it matched the small dia shaft size. It would be possible to use a smaller capscrew and a bush for the bearing.

It is also possible to do it with the engine in place. Difficult, yes, not impossible. I ground clearance for the extraction into the frame members - which are plenty generous to take this. The owner specified the engine was not to come out as he was proud of the very high mileage it had done without coming out or apart....
It cost him about the same, lol, but I didn't have to put my back out lifting the engine....

 

[Buffalo Bill]

At least you now know what it is. IMO repairing your existing parts is the best way out. All the shimming and preloads are set and known.
The center of the broken shaft is soft and can be drilled and tapped quite easily by a competent engineering shop. The size used depends on what tap sizes they have available. I used 14mm because i have it and it matched the small dia shaft size. It would be possible to use a smaller capscrew and a bush for the bearing.

It is also possible to do it with the engine in place. Difficult, yes, not impossible. I ground clearance for the extraction into the frame members - which are plenty generous to take this. The owner specified the engine was not to come out as he was proud of the very high mileage it had done without coming out or apart....
It cost him about the same, lol, but I didn't have to put my back out lifting the engine....

The assembly can be removed from the engine in frame, that's what you did right?
At first I was thinking maybe you bolted a drill press to the engine in the bike frame!
Now that would be legend.

 

[GregT]

Yes,pulled out with the engine in the frame. i worked out what had to be cut back and attacked it with a die grinder. Not a lot had to be removed to get the plate past the frame and there's plenty of meat on the frame members. Splashed a bit of paint in there once it was back together.

No need for a drill press - spin it by running the engine in gear and machine it in place. Yes, I am joking, you'd never guarantee getting it properly centered.

 

[Nessism]

If the gear assembly doesn't come loose from the engine once the screws are removed you may have to crack loose the case screws in that area of the engine to reduce pressure some.

Will a drill press do a proper job drilling the hole? I'm imagining that a lathe would be better, although I'm not sure how to keep the shaft from spinning with the housing clamped in the chuck.

 

[GregT]

If the gear assembly doesn't come loose from the engine once the screws are removed you may have to crack loose the case screws in that area of the engine to reduce pressure some.

Will a drill press do a proper job drilling the hole? I'm imagining that a lathe would be better, although I'm not sure how to keep the shaft from spinning with the housing clamped in the chuck.

The shaft has to come out to go in a lathe. With the nut broken off the end it all just slides apart. So watch you don't drop parts or lose the sequence of shims etc.
The new screw up the center will do what the nut did and hold it all together. i used a socket head high tensile allen screw, drilled and lockwired after tightening.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

The shaft has to come out to go in a lathe. With the nut broken off the end it all just slides apart. So watch you don't drop parts or lose the sequence of shims etc.
The new screw up the center will do what the nut did and hold it all together. i used a socket head high tensile allen screw, drilled and lockwired after tightening.

Allen head screw again, why not a cap screw?