1150 3.5" wheel in an 1100 swingarm

[jwhelan65]

Hmmm.....another 40 post 3.5 wheel swap thread coming up.

I have a 3.5 rear from an 86 1150. I am going to install it on my number 2 83 1100E.

What I have checked out so far is this:

With the chain carrier and 630 sprocket mounted, standard 1100E spacer between hub and adjuster, stock 1100 spacer / bearing diameter reducer between sprocket carrier and left wheel bearing, the center of the 3.5 wheel and the same parts (I have a couple of complete wheel mounting assemblies) fitted to the stock 1100 wheel, both wheels, measured from the chain side are as close to identical as a pencil mark can show when locating the center of the wheel. So far so good. I realize the 3.5 wheel hub is narrower than the 2.5 stock wheel.....(I am not near the machines so do not have the figures) and for sure a spacer or 2 will be required on the rt. side so that the swing arm can be brought in tight / and (maybe) position caliper holder such that caliper can slide over rotor and be centered too( I intend to use the 1100 rotor).

My observation is that, at least on my 1100ED, the swap is a straight forward and simple deal re wheel centering. It appears too that with a 140 / 80 Michelin tire.....the 630 chain will work.....I have an extra caliper stay rod to modify as required re tire clearance...

Spacers may just be different thickness washers initially. If I do have a concern, it is on the rotor side....possibly need to space the rotor outboard a tad....

With very little fabrication the Bandit 1200 brake stay flipped 180 degrees works perfectly. I agree I think this whole process has been over analyzed. Saltys looks to be the easiest and most straight forward.

 

[posplayr]

Hmmm.....another 40 post 3.5 wheel swap thread coming up.

I have a 3.5 rear from an 86 1150. I am going to install it on my number 2 83 1100E.

What I have checked out so far is this:

With the chain carrier and 630 sprocket mounted, standard 1100E spacer between hub and adjuster, stock 1100 spacer / bearing diameter reducer between sprocket carrier and left wheel bearing, the center of the 3.5 wheel and the same parts (I have a couple of complete wheel mounting assemblies) fitted to the stock 1100 wheel, both wheels, measured from the chain side are as close to identical as a pencil mark can show when locating the center of the wheel. So far so good. I realize the 3.5 wheel hub is narrower than the 2.5 stock wheel.....(I am not near the machines so do not have the figures) and for sure a spacer or 2 will be required on the rt. side so that the swing arm can be brought in tight / and (maybe) position caliper holder such that caliper can slide over rotor and be centered too( I intend to use the 1100 rotor).

My observation is that, at least on my 1100ED, the swap is a straight forward and simple deal re wheel centering. It appears too that with a 140 / 80 Michelin tire.....the 630 chain will work.....I have an extra caliper stay rod to modify as required re tire clearance...

Spacers may just be different thickness washers initially. If I do have a concern, it is on the rotor side....possibly need to space the rotor outboard a tad....

yep there nutin that a few spacer wont fix

 

[John Kat]

OK, I've read through all the posts and made one more set of measurements.
I decided to compare my GS 1000 EC ( skunk) that's 100% OEM to my GS 1000S that has an 1150 3" wheel fitted on a GS 1100 swingarm.
Both have a 630 chain with a GS 1000 sprocket carrier.
The idea is the following: my laser chain alignment tool goes against the outside of the rear sprocket ( as I would do to check if the chain is aligned) and I measure the distance to the rear rim with a straightedge.
I believe it's important to do this with the wheels mounted to take out any free play.
The results : GS 1000EC: 56 mm, GS 1000S: 56mm
Surprise, surprise...Suzuki has moved out the chain by exactly the same amount from the rear rim
Sounds like good engineering to me?
Now for the wheel offset.
The 2.5 " wheel measures 84 mm from rim to rim, the 3" wheel measures 96 mm.
The offset is thus (96-84)/2=6 mm
When you think of it it seems obvious: Suzuki wanted to use larger tires on their 1150 so they had to keep the chain away from the tire.
To do so without modifying the sprocket carrier ( cost, cost, cost...) they used an offset wheel ( to the right of course to clear the chain)
To confirm this the 1150 motor has a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket than the 1000's and 1100's.
On the 1150: 21.6 mm wide on the 1000/1100 : 18.6 mm ( PN 09180-25074 vs 09180-25052)
Why is the offset only 3 mm versus the 6mm I measured above?
What's for sure is that it's in the same direction!
Thank you for your attention

 

[posplayr]

OK, I've read through all the posts and made one more set of measurements.
I decided to compare my GS 1000 EC ( skunk) that's 100% OEM to my GS 1000S that has an 1150 3" wheel fitted on a GS 1100 swingarm.
Both have a 630 chain with a GS 1000 sprocket carrier.
The idea is the following: my laser chain alignment tool goes against the outside of the rear sprocket ( as I would do to check if the chain is aligned) and I measure the distance to the rear rim with a straightedge.
I believe it's important to do this with the wheels mounted to take out any free play.
The results : GS 1000EC: 56 mm, GS 1000S: 56mm
Surprise, surprise...Suzuki has moved out the chain by exactly the same amount from the rear rim
Sounds like good engineering to me?
Now for the wheel offset.
The 2.5 " wheel measures 84 mm from rim to rim, the 3" wheel measures 92 mm.
The offset is thus (92-84)/2=4 mm
When you think of it it seems obvious: Suzuki wanted to use larger tires on their 1150 so they had to keep the chain away from the tire.
To do so without modifying the sprocket carrier ( cost, cost, cost...) they used an offset wheel ( to the right of course to clear the chain)
To confirm this the 1150 motor has a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket than the 1000's and 1100's.
On the 1150: 21.6 mm wide on the 1000/1100 : 18.6 mm ( PN 09180-25074 vs 09180-25052)
Here again you find the 3mm offset versus the 4mm I measured above.
Thank you for your attention

While I understand what you are doing, it still doesn't confirm whether the wheel is centered in the bike. If you are only off by +/-4mm (0.157") it won't matter of course; you can trim that out with the front/rear wheel alignment.

Relying on an 8V 1000 and a 16V 1150 cases to have the same countersprock offset in the frame is a real stretch. It is possible, but hardly anything to rely on.

A simpler but less accurate measurement is shown in the attached. Clamp a straight edge to the inside or outside of the fork (which ever has a flatter wider surface) and then measure from the extended straight edge to the edge of the rim. Any error in flatness is multiplied this way, but it might be easier that getting two straight edges across the wheels lip.

The tolerance on a wheel runnout is typically about 1mm or 0.025" so there is a limit to this accuracy, but the tire varies more than 1mm so it doesn't really matter that much.

 

[salty_monk]

I directly compared the wheels to take out anything to do with the frame and swingarm.

I already know the 2.5" wheel is centred (or at least as centred as Suzuki intended) as it's stock (it's an 1100 rim in an 1100 swingarm) so by comparing the 2 wheels directly I can make the adjustments to make sure my 3.5" rim is centred.

I haven't applied it yet but I will....

Even throwing all of the added 5mm needed on the right side (as TCK & others have done) is only going to throw things off by 2mm, I suspect it's not even noticeable to 99.9% of riders. The Hyabusa has more offset than that between front & rear wheel as STOCK (so I have read).

 

[posplayr]

I directly compared the wheels to take out anything to do with the frame and swingarm.

I already know the 2.5" wheel is centred (or at least as centred as Suzuki intended) as it's stock (it's an 1100 rim in an 1100 swingarm) so by comparing the 2 wheels directly I can make the adjustments to make sure my 3.5" rim is centred.

I haven't applied it yet but I will....

Even throwing all of the added 5mm needed on the right side (as TCK & others have done) is only going to throw things off by 2mm, I suspect it's not even noticeable to 99.9% of riders. The Hyabusa has more offset than that between front & rear wheel as STOCK (so I have read).

+/- 4mm is probably the max. I just figured if the bike has 400 lbs of sprung weight (525 lbs total) and you have a 200 lbs rider, then the rider would have to scooch (his weight distribution) over 8mm (0.3") to compensate for a 4mm wheel offset. That is a two to one ratio (which will increase with a smaller rider) so I would want to make sure the offset is not too large.

P.S. I basically worked up my offsets the same way as your did comparing Katmans 1100 measurements to the combination of offsets of the bandit swinger and the 88 3 spoke wheels/gsxr hub.

 

[John Kat]

While I understand what you are doing, it still doesn't confirm whether the wheel is centered in the bike. If you are only off by +/-4mm (0.157") it won't matter of course; you can trim that out with the front/rear wheel alignment.

Relying on an 8V 1000 and a 16V 1150 cases to have the same countersprock offset in the frame is a real stretch. It is possible, but hardly anything to rely on.

A simpler but less accurate measurement is shown in the attached. Clamp a straight edge to the inside or outside of the fork (which ever has a flatter wider surface) and then measure from the extended straight edge to the edge of the rim. Any error in flatness is multiplied this way, but it might be easier that getting two straight edges across the wheels lip.

The tolerance on a wheel runnout is typically about 1mm or 0.025" so there is a limit to this accuracy, but the tire varies more than 1mm so it doesn't really matter that much.

I used your method previously but it's not very accurate as here you are relying on the fact that the straight edge runs parallel to the wheel...
In fact my method amounts to the same but I use the sprocket as a guide instead of a side of the swingarm.
I believe that the sprocket by design runs parallel to the rim.
One can average out the lack of accuracy by taking a few measurements by rotating the wheel around.
I'm not trying to prove that my GS 1000 EC wheel is centered in the swingarm. I'm relying on Suzuki's OEM design for that.
What I'm after is to demonstrate that the 1150 wheel is offset to the right compared to the 1000/1100 wheel.
I believe I have achieved that and that it makes good sense from an engineering standpoint.
If we had been appointed by Suzuki to allow largers tires to go on the 1150 by keeping costs down to a minimum we would have offset the rear wheel to the right to allow the chain to clear the tire while using the same sprocket carrier.
The only extra cost is related to a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket to accomodate for the newly created offset from the chain when the new wheel is used
I would say:well done Mr Suzuki:clap:
If anyone doubts this method; why not do the measurements for yourself.

 

[posplayr]

I used your method previously but it's not very accurate as here you are relying on the fact that the straight edge runs parallel to the wheel...
In fact my method amounts to the same but I use the sprocket as a guide instead of a side of the swingarm.
I believe that the sprocket by design runs parallel to the rim.
One can average out the lack of accuracy by taking a few measurements by rotating the wheel around.
I'm not trying to prove that my GS 1000 EC wheel is centered in the swingarm. I'm relying on Suzuki's OEM design for that.
What I'm after is to demonstrate that the 1150 wheel is offset to the right compared to the 1000/1100 wheel.
I believe I have achieved that and that it makes good sense from an engineering standpoint.
If we had been appointed by Suzuki to allow largers tires to go on the 1150 by keeping costs down to a minimum we would have offset the rear wheel to the right to allow the chain to clear the tire while using the same sprocket carrier.
The only extra cost is related to a larger spacer behind the engine sprocket to accomodate for the newly created offset from the chain when the new wheel is used
I would say:well done Mr Suzuki:clap:
If anyone doubts this method; why not do the measurements for yourself.

you are relying on the fact that the straight edge runs parallel to the wheel...

Not so; The first method was to put a straight edge right against the wheel. Assuming there is in spec runout (>1mm) then the offset to the fork can be measured sub mm (based on the ratio of wheel lip radius to fork distance from axle).

In fact my method amounts to the same but I use the sprocket as a guide instead of a side of the swingarm.

Not to be argumentative but the sprocket carrier doesn' seem very accurate to me. The alignment to the wheel is at a much smaller radius and moves with respect to the wheel due to the narrow bearing shoulder and rubber cushions. On mine I could easily see it move with respect to the wheel as it rotates. If I had to guess using the sproket is probably 5 times worse than a straight edge across the wheel. I know you dont want to hear that but it is straightforward geometry.

What I'm after is to demonstrate that the 1150 wheel is offset to the right compared to the 1000/1100 wheel.

That is understandable, so how can you get a different answer to Salty?Monk? Ultimately a measure of the centering is the only direct confirmation and it is relatively easy given your other symmetries.

And rest assured, I have already done most of the same measurements including experimentaion with various methods of wheel alignment. :-\\\

 

[John Kat]

I'd like to propose the following to get to the bottom of this matter.
Could someone provide us with the dimensions of the original spacers used on the rear wheel of a GS 1150?
I believe that if we compared the stacked height of all spacers ( including the caliper bracket) both right and left of the wheel and we compare that to the GS 1000/1100 spacers we will through some simple arithmetic determine by how much the 1150 wheel is offset compared to the 1000.
This assumes that the GS 1150 swingarm is symetrical of course...
But it would be a good start at least.
I will check on this side of the ocean if I can get this data.

 

[posplayr]

I'd like to propose the following to get to the bottom of this matter.
Could someone provide us with the dimensions of the original spacers used on the rear wheel of a GS 1150?
I believe that if we compared the stacked height of all spacers ( including the caliper bracket) both right and left of the wheel and we compare that to the GS 1000/1100 spacers we will through some simple arithmetic determine by how much the 1150 wheel is offset compared to the 1000.
This assumes that the GS 1150 swingarm is symetrical of course...
But it would be a good start at least.
I will check on this side of the ocean if I can get this data.

Can you use the dimensions from SaltyMonks drawings? I can really read them very well.

 

[John Kat]

No problemo
For the 2.5" wheel I agree with the width of the outside bearing dimension of 116 mm but I find 49.5 mm vs the 54 measured by Salty
For the 3.5" wheel, I agree with the 111 mm B to B measurement but I find 55.5 mm vs 51.25 measured by Salty.
I suspected that Salty might have inverted his measurements but he stated the contrary.
With this data my offset is 55.5-49.5= 6 mm
Salty's offset is 51.25-54= -3.75mm
That's why we disagree...
I did another quick test this afternoon by measuring the offset between the rim and both sides of the swingarm as shown in the picture below.
On my GS 1000 with the 2.5" rim both sides are at 78 mm ( the wheel is well centered)
On my GS 1000 S with the 3" rim both sides are at 68 mm ( bang in the middle again ) but here the wheel is offset to the left by 4 mm with special spacers....

 

[posplayr]

No problemo
For the 2.5" wheel I agree with the width of the outside bearing dimension of 116 mm but I find 49.5 mm vs the 54 measured by Salty
For the 3.5" wheel, I agree with the 111 mm B to B measurement but I find 55.5 mm vs 51.25 measured by Salty.
I suspected that Salty might have inverted his measurements but he stated the contrary.
With this data my offset is 55.5-49.5= 6 mm
Salty's offset is 51.25-54= -3.75mm
That's why we disagree...
I did another quick test this afternoon by measuring the offset between the rim and both sides of the swingarm as shown in the picture below.
On my GS 1000 with the 2.5" rim both sides are at 78 mm ( the wheel is well centered)
On my GS 1000 S with the 3" rim both sides are at 68 mm ( bang in the middle again ) but here the wheel is offset to the left by 4 mm with special spacers....

Those matching dimensions are very comforting, the exact dimensions for spacers should probably be done by calculation but the wheel measurements make sure that nothing was "inverted" in the process. :clap:

You guys are still off by 10mm (that is alot which is why I recommended the wheel measurement)?

A single drawing with known measurements should put it to bed. I dont have a cad model but Powerpoint will allow you to size dimensions pretty accurately as well.

 

[posplayr]

Wheel alighnment using the sting method. I had a thin 600 lbs test kite line so it worked well.

I used this setup to keep the lines tight, the 30 lbs black box was propped up on a wooden block to keep the lines tight .

Quick check on chain alignment. Put 6 ft level against the tire and measured how much lateral offset there was the length of the chain. Looks like less than a link plate width. By measuring left and right forward and backward (4 equal measurements on the disks) confirms the wheels are aligned. Set the rear chain tension, then adjust the right hand side to make all 4 equal.

One last simple thing is to check the chain alignment with the wheel. I used a level below the chain and checked the alignment over the length of the chain. The level rests on the tire but for a chain it is close enough.

 

[John Kat]

I did the wheel alignment test using the string method not only to check that the wheels were aligned but also to check that there were both vertical as I was suspecting some frame damage.
Everything was OK!
I also checked the chain alignment with this handy laser tool that I highly recommend.
Here I'm measuring my 1100 Kat with GSXR 2nd gen wheels and an 1135 engine.

To come back to the point, I wish someone would measure one of the wheels in question to determine who is right or wrong?

 

[posplayr]

To come back to the point, I wish someone would measure one of the wheels in question to determine who is right or wrong?

Since your wheel is measuring "centered" I think you are probably correct. According to your measurements he is off 10mm or 0.4"; that should be pretty noticeable measuring the rim off the fork. Maybe there is another variation? Are you both using 1100 sprocket carriers or 1150 sprocket carriers?

Sorry I only have a bunch of 17 and 18" GSXR wheels

 

[salty_monk]

I will be using the stock GS1000 Sprocket carrier & spacer set but as I noted earlier this works perfectly with the 2.5" GS1100 wheel & GS1100 swingarm.

I believe John & I compared spacer sets (or at least sprocket drive spacers) & they measured up the same.

Until I mount my wheels I cannot say for sure that I am correct.

What I can say is that my measured differences in the 2.5" wheel as compared to the 3.5" wheel are correct (and seeing that everything else is equal because I am using the same sprocket drive & spacer set) then I have a high level of confidence that adding spacers as described will work for me...

I suspect Grand Rouge's pencil mark is 2mm off above..

 

[John Kat]

Good news!
I believe I can confirm my value for the offset of the GS 1000/1100 wheel.
The individual spacers on the GS 1000 going from left ( chain side) to right measure : 28,2/47/116/23/23.6/11.6 for a total stacked height of 249.4 mm
This gives us the wheel center at 249.4/2=124.7mm.
The offset is computed by taking the value of the center minus the two spacers that are left to the left wheel bearing.
This gives 124.7-28.2-47=49.5mm :-\\\
It's getting late so please check my findings...
For the 1150 wheel, I got the following measurements so far:
13.4/XX/111/23.4/24.3
I'm missing the sprocket carrier spacer dimension to conclude.
Soon the mystery of the GS 1150 wheel offset will be solved:dancing:

 

[John Kat]

I got the measurements of the different spacers used on the GS 1150 a few minutes ago....
Here we go: 13.4/42.5/111/23.4/24.3 or a total stacked lenght of 214.6 mm.
The wheel center is thus at 214.6/2= 107.3 mm
The offset is then 107.3-13.4-42.5=51.4 mm.
The GS 1150 rear wheel is thus offset by 51.4-49.5=1.9 mm further to the right compared to the GS 1000 wheel.
Given that all spacers have been measured individually by 2 different persons, it's quite possible that there is a cumulative error of +/-1mm.
My mounted wheels have been offset by 3 mm to the left to get them centered which I believe is the correct value.
I believe we are at the end of the saga on the 1150 wheel offset.
Maybe it's time for me to add a signature?
What about: I like to be challenged but I like even more to win

 

[salty_monk]

John,

I don't have time to really study this again today but I believe you can clearly see in my pictures & CAD above that the 1150 wheel rim is clearly offset to the left of it's hub in comparison to the 2.5" wheel.

Look at the side profile shots. With the hub resting on the ground. (This won't be perfect because it is resting on the casting not the bearing face but the depth of the casting face to bearing face is similar for each wheel so it illustrates the point).

Your measurements are correct but you are calculating to the centre of the HUB not to the centre of the RIM...

I believe the RIM is offset from the HUB.

Dan

 

[John Kat]

Dan,
I believe, I know why our measurements don't agree
For the 1150 wheel you measured an offset of 51.25 mm, my latest measurement is 51.4 mm, so here we do agree.
For the 1000/1100 wheel you measured 54 mm while I have 49.5 mm...
The simple explanation is that you are not measuring an original GS 1000 EC wheel.
That same wheel was used up to and including the KATANA 1100 SZ.
Are you sure of the origin of the wheel?
With respect to your comment about measuring to the center of the hub versus the center of the rim, I would say that the two are the same PROVIDED the swingarm is symetrical.
I know the GS 1000 is as I checked, for the GS 1150 I don't know, but as my measurements concur with my previous findings and your own measurements, I have very little doubt.
Thanks for putting up with me!