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1150 3.5" wheel in an 1100 swingarm

  • Thread starter Thread starter jwhelan65
  • Start date Start date
There are so many variables and people seldom have the exact same configuration that it is best to recommend doing a final check of measurements regardless of how you do the spacers.

1.) Center the wheel in the frame
2.) Alighn the rear wheel with the front wheel (e.g. string method)
3.) Check the chain alignment

This is the link to step one.

I thought about the measurements and suddenly realized there is a pretty easy way to measure the spacer offsets with the wheel and swingarm off the bike. See link.


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=197262
 
John Kat said:
I got the measurements of the different spacers used on the GS 1150 a few minutes ago....
Here we go: 13.4/42.5/111/23.4/24.3 or a total stacked lenght of 214.6 mm.
The wheel center is thus at 214.6/2= 107.3 mm
Click to expand...


I believe your measurements that the wheel is centered, I just don't understand the statement above.

The center of the stack height (214.6/2=107.3mm) is the center of the forks,

If the fork center and wheel center are the same then the swing arm must symmetrical then that is also the center of the bike/frame and there is no wheel offset.
 
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John - no question of "putting up with"... :D One day we'll find an answer we're both happy with.

It would help if I could get some time to fit mine in the bike! Sorry about that! :)

In answer to your question about I have 2 x 2.5" wheels.

One is an original 78GS1000E wheel.

One is a 1983750ES RIM that I retrofitted with the bearing and spacer kit from a GS1100 (cross matched it, the spacer & bearings are identical on these wheels).

I interchange both wheels no problem. The wheel in the pics above is the 83750ES Rim.

I still don't believe the RIM centre & the HUB centre are the same thing. You are calculating HUB Centre whilst my CAD calculates RIM Centre relative to HUB centre.

Hard to explain without you sitting next to me looking at the monitor perhaps. :)
 
posplayr said:
I believe your measurements that the wheel is centered, I just don't understand the statement above.

The center of the stack height (214.6/2=107.3mm) is the center of the forks,

If the fork center and wheel center are the same then the swing arm must symmetrical then that is also the center of the bike/frame and there is no wheel offset.
Click to expand...
What we are trying to achieve is to understand what is the offset between the wheel center and the left bearing edge.
If we replace a given wheel with a wheel with another offset that wheel will no longer be centered unless you use other spacers.
That's why Salty and myself are discussing offset differences between different wheels.
I don't know if I'm answering your question?
So the idea is that if the original wheel runs in a symetric fork, the center of the wheel will be located at 50% of the stacked value of all the spacers.
The wheel offset ( to the edge of the left bearing) will then simply be the 50% stacked value minus the spacers that are left of the left bearing.
I believe that most double shock absorber forks ought to be symetrical.
The chances for the single shockers to be symetrical are surely much lower...
Not easy to explain in words...
I will look into the process you explained in the next post tomorrow!
 
John Kat said:
What we are trying to achieve is to understand what is the offset between the wheel center and the left bearing edge.
If we replace a given wheel with a wheel with another offset that wheel will no longer be centered unless you use other spacers.
That's why Salty and myself are discussing offset differences between different wheels.
I don't know if I'm answering your question?
So the idea is that if the original wheel runs in a symetric fork, the center of the wheel will be located at 50% of the stacked value of all the spacers.
The wheel offset ( to the edge of the left bearing) will then simply be the 50% stacked value minus the spacers that are left of the left bearing.
I believe that most double shock absorber forks ought to be symetrical.
The chances for the single shockers to be symetrical are surely much lower...
Not easy to explain in words...
I will look into the process you explained in the next post tomorrow!
Click to expand...




I think the answer to my question is that:
  • because you are assuming the 1000 wheel is centered and
  • the 1000 forks are centered
therefore you conclude:
the center of the 1000 stack is the center of the 1000 wheel.


When you use the term "offset", I had assumed something else (like how far the hub center is offset from the rim center). But from your calculation I see you mean the distance from sprocket side outside bearing face to wheel center.


It was nice for Dan to draw the two configurations, the problem is that they are unlabeled or the dimensions are illegible

​
 
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If anyone wants the source CAD files you are welcome to them :)

Done in AutoCAD.

Dealing with a screenshot in the posts above, that's the only way to post them so resolution is not great. I admit they aren't that easy to understand as they were "thinking" drawings for me rather than explanatory drawings for someone else to use... once I got my answer I left it there rather than "pretty" them up. :)

By the way... anything white is 1150 - anything red is 1000. (stupid as my 1150 wheel is red, I should have done it the other way!! :D )

Anything not critical to the measurements I was taking is not drawn at full size (i.e. the bearing dia will not be correct as that doesn't effect us in the horizontal plane so I just put an approximation in the drawing).
 
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76e77ccf.jpg



This picture shows that the RIM is offset LEFT of the bearing face (yes the wheel is resting on the wheel casting not the bearing face but they are close enough for demonstrative purposes).

Note how if the RIM was offset the same then the 2.5" RIM would be the same distance from the 1150 RIM top & bottom. It is not. The gap is bigger at the Bottom which is the Drive side. Now you have to think about it on the bike. A bigger gap here shows that the 1150 RIM is sitting further to the left than the 1000 RIM relative to the bearing face. (imagine this picture was taken from above with a swingarm around it, which RIM is closer to the swingarm on the left Side relative to the bearing - discounting for the additional 1" in Rim width of course! )



You Can also see that in this CAD image. The white one is the 1150. In this CAD the bearings are in line. You can clearly see that the 1150 RIM is offset to the LEFT (Drive side) compared to the 1000 RIM. You need to basically ignore the HUB as that is lined up on the left hand side which takes it out of the equation & concentrate on the RIM.
This shows that if we do what TCK did & put 5mm of spacer on the brake side the RIM will be offset left relative to the wheel it is replacing.

10001150Wheelsbearingsaligned.jpg


Full size here: http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/salty_monk/Suzuki/
 
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So I made it a bit easier to understand following my post above.

This is the RIM GAP I am talking about:

76e77ccf-1.jpg


This shows the CAD with labels:

10001150Wheelsbearingsaligned2.jpg


This shows the CAD with 2 blue lines to indicate a swingarm if all we did was pack out the right side by 5mm (as per TCK) so that the HUBS were the same width with BEARINGS FACES ALIGNED on the Left (sprocket side) only.
The other spacers are irrelevant as they will be the SAME FOR BOTH WHEELS.

Note that the 1150 RIM is OFFSET TO THE LEFT relative to the 1000 RIM.

10001150Wheelsbearingsaligned3.jpg


You can easily see from this that the 1000 RIM is centred between the 2 blue lines. The 1150 RIM is not centred between the 2 blue lines & needs shifting to the RIGHT!

The way to do this is to put a spacer between the original Sprocket driver spacer & the Left Bearing face. Any remaining should be taken up on the right hand side (1 side of the brake caliper mount or the other).
 
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So back to my original post, the best set up would be the 2mm left and 3mm right per you first post? This is way more info than I anticipated....
 
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Yes, I plan to start there (give or take what thickness of hardened washers I can find at the store).

As you see above my CAD actually shows 2.75 required to the left but my measurements will not be 100% accurate.

I think key is to in total have approx 5mm of added spacer and to put approx 50% on each side, I really don't think 0.5mm either way will make a difference anyone can feel! :)

The extra spacer on the left defo goes between the sprocket hub spacer and the bearing. The one on the right you'll have to judge when you mount it up to centralise the caliper on the rotor. (will be one side of the caliper mount or the other...)
 
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Salty,
We are definitely not comparing the same wheels...
If I lay my two wheels on the LH side like you do, the 2.5" wheel has it's rim at 20 mm from the reference surface and as the rim width is 88 mm the middle of the rim is at 64 mm (20+88/2)
The rim of the 3.5" wheel lays at 12.5 mm from the surface and it's width is 111 mm.
The center of the rim is thus at 12.5+111/2=68 mm.
So here clearly the 1150's wheel is offset further to the RIGHT than the 1000 wheel.
That's why I narrowed the spacers by 4 mm on the LH side ( sprocket side) to keep the wheel centered.
Apparently your data relates to a 3" 1150 wheel and not a 3.5" wheel like I do;)
Is it the end of the story?
I'm not sure as I have also mounted a 3" wheel with the same offset and it's centered in the swingarm....

PS: Given that we don't have the same 1150 wheels? I doubled checked with my source for the spacers and got corrected data for the sprocket carrier spacer at 47.5 mm versus 42.5 mm...
I can't blame the guy, he did it in a hurry.
The result is that the offset is of course no longer the same you measured but that's now irrelevant as we are comparing data on two different wheels!
PS2: I looked again through the PN of the different spacers used on the various GS 1150's to determine if there was any change to account for the difference between the 3" and 3.5" wheel but found nothing. It's for this reason that I had assumed both wheels would have the same offset.
PS3: I still believe there is a large discrepancy between our measurements of the offset from the edge of the left wheel bearing to the rim center.
On the 2.5" wheel you get 54 mm while I have 49.5?
 
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You won't need hardened washers - there's no rotation of the axle spacers once it's tightened down.

After all this, how far out is the chain line ?
 
GregT said:
You won't need hardened washers - there's no rotation of the axle spacers once it's tightened down.

After all this, how far out is the chain line ?
Click to expand...
On the 3.5" wheel the chain line would be out by 3 to 4mm ( only if you shave the left spacers by the same amount!)
As the 1150 engine sprocket is offset by 3mm compared to the 1100, I would settle for 3 mm.
I checked with my laser alignment tool and it's perfect.
For the 3" wheel, the jury is not out yet...
 
salty_monk said:
Yes, I plan to start there (give or take what thickness of hardened washers I can find at the store).

As you see above my CAD actually shows 2.75 required to the left but my measurements will not be 100% accurate.

I think key is to in total have approx 5mm of added spacer and to put approx 50% on each side, I really don't think 0.5mm either way will make a difference anyone can feel! :)

The extra spacer on the left defo goes between the sprocket hub spacer and the bearing. The one on the right you'll have to judge when you mount it up to centralise the caliper on the rotor. (will be one side of the caliper mount or the other...)
Click to expand...


Cool I am going with this, I will report back...Thanks Dan!
 
Dan,
Well, I've drawn the two rims to scale as in your picture where they are side by side and it looks totally different:mad:
Lying on the LH side the 2.5" rim has it's edge at 20 mm from the reference surface for a rim width of 84 mm (edge to edge)
The 3.5" rim on it's LH side has the rim edge at 12.5 mm from the reference surface for a rim width of 111 mm.
Be so kind to draw it for yourself and you'll see that the 3.5 " rim is clearly offset to the right ( top here)
It should take you no more than 5 minutes to compare my data to yours to determine which one of our wheels is different ( or both?)
 
John,

I don't see an image. Maybe just cause I'm on my phone.
Certainly willing to take some additional measurements.
I can Probably pull them from existing CAD and then double check them physically.

Dan :)
 
salty_monk said:
John,

I don't see an image. Maybe just cause I'm on my phone.
Certainly willing to take some additional measurements.
I can Probably pull them from existing CAD and then double check them physically.

Dan :)
Click to expand...
Sorry Dan, there is no image as I can't scan my drawing but I took some very basic measurements that you eitheir have allready or that you can check very easily.
I'm really puzzled by this whole thing as I believe you know what you are doing and I can't find a straightforward answer on my side:o
 
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