1150 3.5" wheel in an 1100 swingarm

[John Kat]

ok, after reading carefully through this thread, i would say that MY 3.5 inch 1150 wheel is similar to john's, and as such is offset to the RIGHT by about 5mm, from what i can see here his recipe of shaving down the LEFT, drive side spacer and adding the difference to the brake side is correct for me. this is all going by just looking at it with my eyes, not with any real measurements. but, based on what i SEE, this is right. john, i think a pm will be headed your way soon, i am not sure how to deal with the countersprocket needing to move out. i gotta believe i want full engagement of the splines.

I must say, I'm glad to see that I'm not alone on this one
You are definitely right: you shave 5 mm off the LEFT side spacer, you add 5 mm to the right hand side but now your chain engine sprocket needs to be moved out by 5 mm.
It's very easy to do: you add a spacer behind the engine sprocket.
This spacer can be found at Z1 enterprises as it's used when you replace the OEM sprocket ( allthough in the std application it goes on the outside of the sprocket whereas here it will go on the inside).
There is enough thread on the sprocket shaft if you remove the noise dampening rings off the OEM engine sprocket!
Would you know the exact origin of your 3.5" wheel?
The Z1 reference for a 6 mm spacer is TU24-9325.

 

[Guest]

ok, ok, ok. hang on here. something is not right on my end, maybe my chain is not aligned as well as i thought. also, maybe i need to take some more pics and take some measurements.


ok, so on my bike, an 83 1100 es, this mod was done by tck about, what, like 3 or 4 years ago? i have been running it basically as-is for 2 years now.

it has already gotten a 530 sprocket and chain.

it also already has the spacer BEHIND the engine sprocket, with the sprocket unadorned with any damping rings. it pushes the sprocket out to the end of the splines. pics to follow.

bear with me, guys, i just want things right.

greg

 

[Guest]

ok, some pics

notice the wear on the sprocket. obviously i had some alignment issues there. im sure you guys are gonna tell me to replace it.....
similar wear is seen on the inside of the wheel sprocket, as you would expect.

the spacers measure about 16 mm for the one outboard of the brake stay and about 28 for the chain side. the engine sprocket spacer is indeed 5mm.

 

[John Kat]

The spacers are the standard ones for the GS 1000 at least on the left hand side.
The one on the right is larger to take into account the smaller bearing to bearing size of the 1150 wheel.
Clearly the 5 mm engine sprocket spacer was placed on the wrong side of the sprocket for the std 1100 wheel configuration
I can't imagine the state of the chain...

 

[Guest]

anyone have a good source for spacers?

 

[posplayr]

anyone have a good source for spacers?

do yourself a favor and see if the chain is aligned with the wheel. This construction level is pushed against the tire and compared to the chain. The sprocket carriers are not well aligned and a laser of the sprocket is not accurate.

 

[salty_monk]

In a 530 chain CONVERSION the spacer goes on the OUTSIDE Of the drive sprocket (small one at the front) NOT the inside. (makes sense when you think about it, the rear sprocket hasn't moved at all...., it's inside edge is still flat to the sprocket hub so all the width (sprocket width) that is lost is lost from the outside NOT the inside).

Switch the spacer to the outside of the sprocket & your problem will disappear it seems to me....

By the way TCK put all his spacer on the RIGHT. You would be better moving half of the spacer to the Left between the wheel bearing & the drive hub Spacer. (Right now your rim will be offset about 2-3mm to the left but I am sure in practice you probably don't notice that when riding).
I am very confident that TCK's wheel measures up the same as mine from the threads he posted. If you do this.. check clearance on the RIGHT after you've done it as you'll be generating chain to tyre clearance on the Left & losing brake stay to tyre clearance on the right by doing this.

John - this is a different issue to yours

Dan

 

[Guest]

do yourself a favor and see if the chain is aligned with the wheel. This construction level is pushed against the tire and compared to the chain. The sprocket carriers are not well aligned and a laser of the sprocket is not accurate.

i will do this tonight.

 

[Guest]

In a 530 chain CONVERSION the spacer goes on the OUTSIDE Of the drive sprocket (small one at the front) NOT the inside. (makes sense when you think about it, the rear sprocket hasn't moved at all...., it's inside edge is still flat to the sprocket hub so all the width (sprocket width) that is lost is lost from the outside NOT the inside).

Switch the spacer to the outside of the sprocket & your problem will disappear it seems to me....

By the way TCK put all his spacer on the RIGHT. You would be better moving half of the spacer to the Left between the wheel bearing & the drive hub Spacer. (Right now your rim will be offset about 2-3mm to the left but I am sure in practice you probably don't notice that when riding).
I am very confident that TCK's wheel measures up the same as mine from the threads he posted. If you do this.. check clearance on the RIGHT after you've done it as you'll be generating chain to tyre clearance on the Left & losing brake stay to tyre clearance on the right by doing this.

John - this is a different issue to yours

Dan

hi dan, glad you have chimed in.

listen, yes, josh added spacing to the right, but, im telling you, my wheel is offset to the RIGHT, or brake side, as it is right now. take a look at the pics, i havent measured it (will do so tonight) but you can see the offset is obviously to the brake side of things. this is with no additional spacing to the drive (left) side:

drive side: you can see the tire to swingarm clearance if you look carefully

brake side: obviously less clearance

i will tacke some more measurements and pics when i get home tonite if i can get the kids off my back for a minute.

havent been this excited by the forum in a couple years! nice to have a problem to solve, sometimes i feel like my gs 's are too reliable

 

[John Kat]

In a 530 chain CONVERSION the spacer goes on the OUTSIDE Of the drive sprocket (small one at the front) NOT the inside. (makes sense when you think about it, the rear sprocket hasn't moved at all...., it's inside edge is still flat to the sprocket hub so all the width (sprocket width) that is lost is lost from the outside NOT the inside).

Switch the spacer to the outside of the sprocket & your problem will disappear it seems to me....

By the way TCK put all his spacer on the RIGHT. You would be better moving half of the spacer to the Left between the wheel bearing & the drive hub Spacer. (Right now your rim will be offset about 2-3mm to the left but I am sure in practice you probably don't notice that when riding).
I am very confident that TCK's wheel measures up the same as mine from the threads he posted. If you do this.. check clearance on the RIGHT after you've done it as you'll be generating chain to tyre clearance on the Left & losing brake stay to tyre clearance on the right by doing this.

John - this is a different issue to yours

Dan

I'm not so sure
The PO obviously mounted the spacer for the engine sprocket on the wrong side but on top of that the 1150 wheel appears shifted to the right...just like mine!
The chain to tire clearance does not change if you narrow the LH spacer.
The chain will of course have to move out by the same amount.
And that's when you use the spacer on the other side of the engine sprocket.

 

[salty_monk]

Regardless your chain/sprocket issue (with the spacer pack you are using) is caused by the spacer being on the wrong side of the sprocket...

 

[Guest]

quick update. i think i have everything sorted, mostly. it did take milling that drive side spacer down 5 mm and adding an additional 5mm outboard of the brake stay to center the wheel in the swingarm. (well, to be honest, it is still about 1mm to the right, but i am ok with that, for now.) everything seems to line up well now, chain alignment seems to be within spec, rear wheel aligned with the front, no drag in the system. i think i am going to run this chain/sprocket till this winter, the chain seem to be in ok shape still, a calculated risk, i guess, but based on my assessment i'm comfortable with it.

thanks for all the feedback on this, it really helps to bounce ideas around like this. i will post pics when i get a chance. Learned a lot here!

incidentally, at my local m/c breaker yesterday i saw a beautiful, very clean 81 1100e with flatslides that he said would be for sale soon....for $4000!!!! pretty proud price, for sure. i will get some pics soon if i can. This place is a football field sized warehouse literally PACKED with bikes in various states of disassembly, pretty cool place. all metric stuff.

thanks again guys!!

greg

 

[John Kat]

quick update. i think i have everything sorted, mostly. it did take milling that drive side spacer down 5 mm and adding an additional 5mm outboard of the brake stay to center the wheel in the swingarm. (well, to be honest, it is still about 1mm to the right, but i am ok with that, for now.) everything seems to line up well now, chain alignment seems to be within spec, rear wheel aligned with the front, no drag in the system. i think i am going to run this chain/sprocket till this winter, the chain seem to be in ok shape still, a calculated risk, i guess, but based on my assessment i'm comfortable with it.

thanks for all the feedback on this, it really helps to bounce ideas around like this. i will post pics when i get a chance. Learned a lot here!

incidentally, at my local m/c breaker yesterday i saw a beautiful, very clean 81 1100e with flatslides that he said would be for sale soon....for $4000!!!! pretty proud price, for sure. i will get some pics soon if i can. This place is a football field sized warehouse literally PACKED with bikes in various states of disassembly, pretty cool place. all metric stuff.

thanks again guys!!

greg

Greg, I'm glad to see that these posts were usefull in the end
The mystery remains on why Suzuki issued two different types of "1150" rear wheels?

 

[salty_monk]

Glad you got it sorted.

 

[Joe Nardy]

Other concerns....

Other concerns....

Okay, I have read through this thread and conversed with Dan, Greg, And Dallas regarding their results prior to attempting to mount the Enkei 3.5 GS1150 rear wheel I have. I did a bunch of measurements today with Baatfam graciously assisting and verifying. I do not see anything in the thread regarding the offset of the sprocket and brake rotor compared to the stock 2.5 inch wheel, at least my stock '83 GS1100ED wheel. We found that, measured from the center of the wheel, the sprocket on the 1150 wheel is offset 4mm outboard compared to the 1100 wheel and the brake rotor is offset 9mm inboard compared to the 1100 wheel. This means that to properly do this swap, the countershaft sprocket would need to be spaced out 4mm and the brake rotor would need to be spaced in 9mm in order for the wheel to be centered and have a straight chain run and the brake caliper in alignment.

For reference, here are my measurements:

Wheel center to sprocket inner edge:
1100 wheel - 86mm
1150 wheel - 90mm

Wheel center to rotor inner edge:
1100 wheel - 80mm
1150 wheel - 71mm

I would appreciate if someone could verify these measurements. If my measurements are correct and anyone has done this swap without making adjustments to the countershaft sprocket and rear brake caliper you will have chain alignment and brake alignment issues. The first is probably minor, the second could be very serious.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[posplayr]

Okay, I have read through this thread and conversed with Dan, Greg, And Dallas regarding their results prior to attempting to mount the Enkei 3.5 GS1150 rear wheel I have. I did a bunch of measurements today with Baatfam graciously assisting and verifying. I do not see anything in the thread regarding the offset of the sprocket and brake rotor compared to the stock 2.5 inch wheel, at least my stock '83 GS1100ED wheel. We found that, measured from the center of the wheel, the sprocket on the 1150 wheel is offset 4mm outboard compared to the 1100 wheel and the brake rotor is offset 9mm inboard compared to the 1100 wheel. This means that to properly do this swap, the countershaft sprocket would need to be spaced out 4mm and the brake rotor would need to be spaced in 9mm in order for the wheel to be centered and have a straight chain run and the brake caliper in alignment.

For reference, here are my measurements:

Wheel center to sprocket inner edge:
1100 wheel - 86mm
1150 wheel - 90mm

Wheel center to rotor inner edge:
1100 wheel - 80mm
1150 wheel - 71mm

I would appreciate if someone could verify these measurements. If my measurements are correct and anyone has done this swap without making adjustments to the countershaft sprocket and rear brake caliper you will have chain alignment and brake alignment issues. The first is probably minor, the second could be very serious.

Thanks,
Joe

It is intuitive and I think correct that the counter sprocket offset is almost entirely a function of rear wheel width (assuming you are running 530 or less) and really nothing else.

For a 5.5" wheel Katman has been specifying a 5/8" offset counter sprocket
and for a 4.5" wheel that is a 3/8" offset contersproket(what I have verified produces very close to about 0.080" chain alignment). IRC I would need to machine the sprocket carrier to get it any closer.
That is a 1/4" difference so dropping yest another 1" in rear wheel width you should figure to drop another 1/4" off of the offset. That would be 0.125" or 1/8" (3.175mm) That is pretty close to your 4mm measurements.

 

[Joe Nardy]

It is intuitive and I think correct that the counter sprocket offset is almost entirely a function of rear wheel width (assuming you are running 530 or less) and really nothing else.

For a 5.5" wheel Katman has been specifying a 5/8" offset counter sprocket
and for a 4.5" wheel that is a 3/8" offset contersproket(what I have verified produces very close to about 0.080" chain alignment). IRC I would need to machine the sprocket carrier to get it any closer.
That is a 1/4" difference so dropping yest another 1" in rear wheel width you should figure to drop another 1/4" off of the offset. That would be 0.125" or 1/8" (3.175mm) That is pretty close to your 4mm measurements.

Jim,

Agreed and understood. It is intuitive that a wider wheel will require more sprocket offset to allow chain clearance. However, I don't think it can be said that for a given width of rear wheel a specific amount of offset is required. While it is likely that two rear wheels of the same width would have similar offsets it is not a given. The offset can be easily determined by measuring from the center of the wheel to the sprocket and comparing to the original wheel.

My main point is that this thread seems to focus mostly on axle spacers and does little to address the brake caliper and countershaft sprocket offset. Dallas (Grand Rouge) mentions spacing the rotor and carrier 7mm (my measurements indicate 9mm and only the rotor would need to be spaced to match the original caliper position) but makes no mention of spacing the countershaft sprocket. There is little information about countershaft spacers specific to this modification. I just wanted to make the point that, according to my measurements, the countershaft sprocket and rotor would need spacers besides the axle spacers for everything to line up properly.

Some of the differences may be due to different components being used. In my case I am using an Enkei 3.5 inch rear wheel with the rotor and sprocket/carrier from my '83 GS1100ED.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[posplayr]

Jim,

Agreed and understood. It is intuitive that a wider wheel will require more sprocket offset to allow chain clearance. However, I don't think it can be said that for a given width of rear wheel a specific amount of offset is required. While it is likely that two rear wheels of the same width would have similar offsets it is not a given. The offset can be easily determined by measuring from the center of the wheel to the sprocket and comparing to the original wheel.

My main point is that this thread seems to focus mostly on axle spacers and does little to address the brake caliper and countershaft sprocket offset. Dallas (Grand Rouge) mentions spacing the rotor and carrier 7mm (my measurements indicate 9mm and only the rotor would need to be spaced to match the original caliper position) but makes no mention of spacing the countershaft sprocket. There is little information about countershaft spacers specific to this modification. I just wanted to make the point that, according to my measurements, the countershaft sprocket and rotor would need spacers besides the axle spacers for everything to line up properly.

Some of the differences may be due to different components being used. In my case I am using an Enkei 3.5 inch rear wheel with the rotor and sprocket/carrier from my '83 GS1100ED.

Thanks,
Joe

Joe,
I went around and around with Katman on wheel spacers and offsets when I did my 4.5" rear wheel. In the end his final conclusions for a 5/8" offset for 5.5" wheel are correct as was his recommendation for 3/8" offset for the 4.5" wheel. Having said that we had a lot of trouble coming up with exact measurements and predictions spacer sizing. Ultimately we just did offsets to what he knew was correct (having fitted and measured the setup on multiple bikes) and everything fell into place.

One thing I would be leary of is measuring the chain offset. As I recall the runout of the sprocket (as it is mounted to a carrier mounted in rubber cushions) was not very accurate for projecting forward a line to the counter sprocket.I run a straight edge off the tire (preferably the rim) to see how skew that is to the chain.

So all the data I have seen including yours says that (for bigger GS Suzukis) the counter sprocket offset should be

CSO = 5/8"-(5.5-Wheel Width)/4.0

where substituting for Wheel Width you get

CSO Wheel Width Reference
5/8" 5.5" Katman standard offset
3/8" 4.5" My GS1100ED and other bikes Katman has done
1/8" 3.5" Your data (4.0mm is only 0.033" off)
-1/8" 2.5" Computed for consistence check.

From there you can fine tune by milling or spacing the counter sprocket if it is not close enough.

Jim
P.S. the reason that the total with difference is divided by 4 is that if you drop the wheel width by 1" then you have an extra 0.5" on either side. And to center the chain in the available space you only more it over 0.25" to realign with the new center of the frame tire space. So a 1" diff in width needs a 0.25" shift to recenter the chain.

 

[jwhelan65]

Wheel swap threads are like political debates, after reading them your usually more confused and uncertain than when you started.

 

[jwhelan65]

Here is one that worked with my own recipe

1150 rear in a stock 700 swinger..sounds kinda naughty