1150 3.5" wheel in an 1100 swingarm

[posplayr]

Wheel swap threads are like political debates, after reading them your usually more confused and uncertain than when you started.

Have you tried a straight edge against the tire to see how much skew there is between the edge and the chain? I put a 6' level under the chain to take this picture.

 

[salty_monk]

Joe,

What sprocket hub and axle spacer pack are you going to use?
I intend to use the stock ones for my bike not the 1150 one and that could impact things....

Dan

 

[rapidray]

Just to throw another curve at you guys, if you use the 86/87 GSXR 1100 rear wheel, which is the same 6 spoke design as the 1150 wheels, the front sprocket offset needs to be 6mm. Ray.

 

[John Kat]

Here is one that worked with my own recipe

1150 rear in a stock 700 swinger..sounds kinda naughty

I believe the monoshocked 1150 and the 700 have the same swingarm?
If that's true, it would be interesting to measure the total width of the wheel and all it's spacers at the axle level. We could then compare that to the identical "stacked" height on a normal GS 1000.
I bet they are not the same by...8 mm which would explain why the 1150 wheel on a GS 1000 has to be moved by 4 mm to the left.
This would also confirm why the engine sprocket spacer on an 1150 is 4 mm longer than on the GS 1000

 

[John Kat]

Have you tried a straight edge against the tire to see how much skew there is between the edge and the chain? I put a 6' level under the chain to take this picture.

I've used this handy laser device ( from germany!) to check my chain alignment

 

[rapidray]

I believe the monoshocked 1150 and the 700 have the same swingarm?

No, they are different. Ray.

 

[rapidray]

John, can you give me info on a purchase for that laser? Thanks, Ray.

 

[posplayr]

I've used this handy laser device ( from germany!) to check my chain alignment

I bought one as well ( another brand) but unless you confirm the runout of your sprocket it is probably inaccurate. Remember there is a large multiplication factor on runout errors and projecting to the counter sprocket.

 

[John Kat]

I bought one as well ( another brand) but unless you confirm the runout of your sprocket it is probably inaccurate. Remember there is a large multiplication factor on runout errors and projecting to the counter sprocket.

You are right, but by making multiple measurement when turning the wheel around the errors will decrease.

 

[John Kat]

John, can you give me info on a purchase for that laser? Thanks, Ray.

Ray, here we go
http://www.profi-products.de/shop/en///Profi-SE-CAT-in-aluminum-housing.html
By the way, I'm using a GSXR 1100 G/H rear wheel on my GS 1000 and I had to use a 13 mm Offset sprocket...
I'm using the original GSXR sprocket carrier.
The AFAM box it came in was marked " GS 1000" but it doesn't state what wheel it can accomodate...

 

[jwhelan65]

Joe,

What sprocket hub and axle spacer pack are you going to use?
I intend to use the stock ones for my bike not the 1150 one and that could impact things....

Dan

I used the 1150 stock spacing with the 700 rotor. The rear was pretty straight forward, getting the 1150 2.75" front to line up and look stock proved to be somewhat challenging..

 

[jwhelan65]

 

[jwhelan65]

Just to throw another curve at you guys, if you use the 86/87 GSXR 1100 rear wheel, which is the same 6 spoke design as the 1150 wheels, the front sprocket offset needs to be 6mm. Ray.

That is definitely an option Ray but I didn't want 18" wheels..

 

[Joe Nardy]

One thing I would be leary of is measuring the chain offset. As I recall the runout of the sprocket (as it is mounted to a carrier mounted in rubber cushions) was not very accurate for projecting forward a line to the counter sprocket.

You are right, but by making multiple measurement when turning the wheel around the errors will decrease.

Yes, we made multiple measurements in different spots on the wheel. We also minimized the effect of the rubber cushions by tightening the sprocket carrier down using a threaded rod and cones from my No-Mar balancer. The results were consistent and repeatable.

Just to verify, I measured the distance from the wheel center to the outer wheel bearing face on the sprocket side. This is a fixed point, not affected by the rubber cushions. The difference between the 2.5 inch GS1100 wheel and the 3.5 inch GS1150 wheel was the same 4mm.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[posplayr]

You are right, but by making multiple measurement when turning the wheel around the errors will decrease.

For the cost of 45 Euros you would hope that device is pretty well aligned, but just as a check flip it to the inside of the chain to see if there is a shift. The one I bought off of eBay had obviously been calibrated as the led had been mounted in glue. When a 180 deg flip in the device gives the same reading then you know it is aligned.

I just watched the video. It is in German but it is pretty clear that they are doing rear axle adjustments to alight the chain without regard for wheel alignment????

 

[John Kat]

For the cost of 45 Euros you would hope that device is pretty well aligned, but just as a check flip it to the inside of the chain to see if there is a shift. The one I bought off of eBay had obviously been calibrated as the led had been mounted in glue. When a 180 deg flip in the device gives the same reading then you know it is aligned.

I just watched the video. It is in German but it is pretty clear that they are doing rear axle adjustments to alight the chain without regard for wheel alignment????

I did the laser alignment check as you stated
German quality for sure.
As for the wheel alignment they sell another device to do just that.
It's the traditional string method but using their laser beams.
Personally, I've used the same device to do both

 

[John Kat]

Yes, we made multiple measurements in different spots on the wheel. We also minimized the effect of the rubber cushions by tightening the sprocket carrier down using a threaded rod and cones from my No-Mar balancer. The results were consistent and repeatable.

Just to verify, I measured the distance from the wheel center to the outer wheel bearing face on the sprocket side. This is a fixed point, not affected by the rubber cushions. The difference between the 2.5 inch GS1100 wheel and the 3.5 inch GS1150 wheel was the same 4mm.

Thanks,
Joe

I took out the old measurements I did
The distance from the wheel center to the left bearing face is
for the GS 1000 2.5" wheel 49.5mm
for the GS 1150 3.5" wheel 55.5 mm
A difference of 6 mm but in practice I mounted my wheel with 4 mm offset only by reducing the width of the LH spacer by that amount
The 3.5" wheel mounted on my 1100 Kat

 

[posplayr]

I took out the old measurements I did
The distance from the wheel center to the left bearing face is
for the GS 1000 2.5" wheel 49.5mm
for the GS 1150 3.5" wheel 55.5 mm
A difference of 6 mm but in practice I mounted my wheel with 4 mm offset only by reducing the width of the LH spacer by that amount
The 3.5" wheel mounted on my 1100 Kat

John,
Yours seems to be the anomoly to this formula.

The basic formula for counter sprocket offset (CSO) is

CSO = 5/8"-(5.5-Wheel Width)/4.0

The basic presumption is that in order for the chain to remain centered between the available space of frame and tire then the chain has to move ? of what ever wheel width change there is.

? is due to ? the wheel width being divided left to right and the other ? comes from the distance required to re-center the chain in the new available space.
Combined ? and ? is ?. It seems to work very well on a varied set of bikes except for the 13mm you used on a 4.0” wheel.

Jim

 

[John Kat]

John,
Yours seems to be the anomoly to this formula.

The basic formula for counter sprocket offset (CSO) is

CSO = 5/8"-(5.5-Wheel Width)/4.0

The basic presumption is that in order for the chain to remain centered between the available space of frame and tire then the chain has to move ? of what ever wheel width change there is.

? is due to ? the wheel width being divided left to right and the other ? comes from the distance required to re-center the chain in the new available space.
Combined ? and ? is ?. It seems to work very well on a varied set of bikes except for the 13mm you used on a 4.0? wheel.

Jim

Jim, I understand your logic but to me the most important point is to FIRST get the wheel centered and SECOND to align the countersprocket with the OEM chain carrier.
That's what led me to a 13 mm offset sprocket.
I use by the way the same offset for the GSXR 11K 3 spoke 4.5" wheel.

 

[posplayr]

Jim, I understand your logic but to me the most important point is to FIRST get the wheel centered and SECOND to align the countersprocket with the OEM chain carrier.
That's what led me to a 13 mm offset sprocket.
I use by the way the same offset for the GSXR 11K 3 spoke 4.5" wheel.

Not sure how you get the same offset with a different sized wheel unless it is not on center.

The formula is based on the fact that the rear wheel is centered no matter how you get there and it matches the data from "known" good setups . At least it matches the 4 references I listed.

I'm not saying your wheel is not centered, but how would you explain needing the same offset for 4.0" and 4.5" and the counter sprocket offset being about 1/2 way between 5.5" and 4.5" wheels? The only exceptions to this formula are variations in rear sprocket offsets or sprocket carrier milling.

My ED was a little more complicated because my rear wheel although centered in the frame is not centered in the swingarm nor the swingarm centered in the frame. I offset the bandit swingarm in order to make room and retain the stock rear brake arm. The upside of this is that I was able to make everything work with only a 1.0" spacer on the sprocket side with minimal compromise in centering (I don't remember the exact number but it was a fraction of a mm).

I sent an email to Katman to see what he thinks.