1980 GS850L charging system woes

[tirebiter]

Rewound my burnt stator a week ago. Did a really messy job but it worked ! "Little Suzy" actually ran better than she had been for months. Then I had the nerve to go up into the top of the RPM range a day or two ago. Now I find that my battery is slowly loosing charge. Voltage at any RPM is now lower than it was after the messy rewind of the stator. With everything on, the voltage barely gets over 13 at the battery and the windings show less than 20 AC volts. Flasher won't flash if I apply the brakes at the same time.

Seriously considering all my options. Do not want to spend any money if possible. Haha like that'll ever be the case.

Will be rewinding the stator again this afternoon. Will be keeping the RPMs under 6500 until I can do something about the rectifier/regulator. Does anyone have a schematic and/or parts list for the series style rectifier/regulators ? Anyone ever try one (R/R) from an automotive application ? I know there are many options for CHEAP money that have inbuilt rectifiers and separate inbuilt or external regulators.

I'm very handy with a soldering iron and very interested in being able to use the top of the RPM range when I want to ... without frying the stator windings and without spending my week's gasoline allotment to buy a new stator and another week's allotment to buy a Shindengen R/R.

 

[Dragon Breath]

Evidently a "messy" rewind isn't quite good enough.

Best bet would be to get a Caltric stator (about $50) and look on eBay for a Polaris R/R. Some used ones have been found for about $45, making your total cost just under $100.

Not sure how that compares with your weekly gas allotment, but it will certainly enhance your riding time.

 

[Juergen]

The stater is three phase. leads, two at a time to a volt ohm meter, I thought it put out in any pairs of two about 80v AC.
I have seen how motors are rewound. Glad you can do something like that. I have no information on the rectifier/regulator. They use a full wave rectifier of some sort. I found out on my GS550L years ago, that if the light system is not turned on, the stater would burn out. Your stater my have produced to much AC voltage.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Gorminrider]

Anyone ever try one (R/R) from an automotive application ? I know there are many options for CHEAP money that have inbuilt rectifiers and separate inbuilt or external regulators.

Car systems are difficult and would end up pretty bulky.... The output from the alternators is rectified before it gets to their regulators. but Yes it can be done...it just depends on how much fiddling and bulk you can put in versus waiting for a $20-30 ebay unit that is much easier to connect.

It takes practise to wind by hand! I expect you will do better second time . You don't need 80vac output. 50-60vac will work even if you are discharging the battery a bit at intersections. so You don't need to cram windings in too tight. Use popsicle sticks or something plastic (gentle) to wedge and winkle the windings while you go. Finishing each leg one at a time is the safest. but it can be a help fitting them to do all three legs at once-JUST give yourself lots of wire for each leg!!! you do not want to run out at the last if you can help it...

 

[tirebiter]

Well anyway I just finished up and want to thank everyone who offered advice.
I had some of the high temp wire left and tried that. It ran short on teh third winding so I soldered a piece on from what was pulled off. Just needed one post's worth.

Oh meter told me "too bad, you loose". The last winding was grounded to the stator core. Should have checked while I was winding. Lesson learned ... supposedly.

Had a loop of enameled wire from an old tv set that I had harvested recently. Much smaller gauge so I wound it in two parallel. Much easier to work with.

Ohm Meter told me "too bad, you loose" again. Guess I didn't learn my lesson. Left the ohm meter connected and started unwinding. Yay, the second post was the ground point. Rewound with the ohm meter connected.

Went to solder the wires together at the beginning of each wind. Ohm meter said very poor solder job. 5 ohms !!!?

Stupid me. Aluminum wire. Used the much hated crimp-on connectors and finished up. I know it won't last, especially if I hit stratospheric RPMs so ...

Demurely I shall go. Putt-putting to and fro.

For now anyway Little Suzy will get me to work in the morning and I hope back again without worry. I'll have time to enjoy the scenery. Meanwhile, I will save my pennies and within a few weeks, get the new Caltric stator and a used Sheningen/Polaris rectifier /regulator.

Thinking about a switch to turn off the charging system above a certain RPM ... Nah, not worth the bother ... or is it ??? Maybe just disconnect a couple of windings, instead ... hmmm.

 

[Steve]

Thinking about a switch to turn off the charging system above a certain RPM ... Nah, not worth the bother ... or is it ??? Maybe just disconnect a couple of windings, instead ... hmmm.

All you have to do there is to think about the SH775 R/R.

I realize you said you like to do things yourself and scrimp on costs, but WOW!!!, I would have given up LONG before that.

.

 

[tirebiter]

Made it 10 miles to the gas station, this morning when the flasher started to stop flashing as I applied the brakes. Turned around and went home. Took the gas guzzler hard-to-park minivan to work, instead. Self-proclaimed cheapskate here and too stubborn for my own good oftentimes.

I yield. Saving my pennies now, for new stator and an upgrade for the R/R. Meanwhile I'm going to go through the charging system wires and replace connectors where needed and clean up the grounding points. Maybe even run a few new wires as has been touted on these pages for a while.

At least there is a being-worked-on 1990 Ninja 750R in the next stall, if I really get the urge.

 

[tirebiter]

A replacement used stator arrived yesterday. The used Polaris Rectifier/Regulator from eBay is due to be here, tomorrow. It's supposed to get into the '80's today.

I am SO tempted to slap the stator in right now and go but patience is a virtue and I have been too impatient already. A couple of times already ...

After reading many posts and threads regarding the charging system, I will be finally going through it entirely once the R/R gets here. Meanwhile "Little Suzy" sits and everyone who "told me so" back when I first bought her, can say "I told you so" if you want. I deserve it.

I figure I may as well put in several relays while I'm at it, to keep the switches happy. I have already put on extra brake lights and may end up adding more headlights or a couple of obnoxiously bright HID lamps, in the not too distant future.

Where to mount the relays is something that has been occupying my mind at times. Any suggestions ? I'd rather keep the wiring as short as possible and put them all together in one spot.

 

[posplayr]

You could have been "King" among GS misers, but in this case more like the court jester.

glad you have come back to reality.

 

[wymple]

Yeak, he's cheap. Or maybe he likes a challenge & doesn't give up easily. There is a Denso mini alternator on my Cal II Moto Guzzi because I was told it couldn't be done on a Tonti framed bike. Some of us are just stubborn.

 

[eil]

Throw in that new stator and Polaris R/R and you will never have another charging issue again.

Yes, patience is a virtue. My throttle cable snapped yesterday at the grip when I was almost all the way to work. Managed to baby it back home later in the day with a pair of small vice grips. (This hack actually worked much better than expected since I could still "twist" the throttle. Mostly.) Ordered two new cables from Parts Outlaw but they'll be 2-2.5 weeks getting here. My fault for not following through on all of the regular seasonal maintenance.

There should be plenty of room under the tank for relays and such. There is on mine, anyway. And all the wires you need are right there too.

 

[Steve]

Throw in that new stator and Polaris R/R and you will never have another charging issue again.

Well, let's just say that there won't be any charging issues until he adds those "obnoxiously bright HIDs". Or any other multiple headlights.

Your "new" Polaris regulator will do a great job of controlling any excess current/voltage, just be aware that it can't create any more capacity above what the stator can put out.

.

 

[posplayr]

Yeak, he's cheap. Or maybe he likes a challenge & doesn't give up easily. There is a Denso mini alternator on my Cal II Moto Guzzi because I was told it couldn't be done on a Tonti framed bike. Some of us are just stubborn.

I did not mean to be too hard on teh OP but there is a distinct difference in "flying in the face" of conventional wisdom and "learning the hard way" conventional wisdom.


I had a little chuckle about the aluminum wire.

 

[Brendan W]

Must say I got to admire tirebiter. If you want proof about the wrong way he's the man.
Thing is every so often the guy who won't accept conventional wisdom and tries something off the wall, discovers something really cool.
Keeps guys like me, with thirty year old facts, honest as well.

 

[tirebiter]

ok, ok, make fun of me. Call me cheap if you want. I deserve it. I can take it. I have always tried to go beyond conventional wisdom. It helps me remember why not too. I mean consider the type that would endeavor to use a 35 year old motorcycle every day year round for commuting and daily transportation in New England. I stay off it when it's snowing but that's about the only time ... or when Little Suzy is down like now.

The regulator arrived 2 days ahead of schedule so I gleefully went out to replace the stator and R/R. Turns out I was SO cheap, I bought the WRONG USED STATOR. a 1982 GS1100G uses a larger stator than a 1982 GS1100T which is supposedly the same as what I need. Patience is a virtue and mine is working overtime now.

I guess I'll need to look into how many amps the stock stator can produce, now ... before adding too much extra electrical load. Thanks for pointing that out Steve.

I'm glad someone had a laugh over the aluminum wire. I knew it was a joke when I was winding it on. Hey, I tried ... figured if I kept the RPMS down. Oh well.

Meanwhile I'm heading back onto eBay to see if I can get the right used stator. this time. Thanks for the words of encouragement everyone.

 

[bwringer]

If you want a good stator for your 850 cheap, just haunt fleaBay for a GS500 stator. You should be able to score them for $20-$25, often complete with the stator cover.

My bike is wearing a stator from a 2001 GS500. The R/R is from an early '80s Honda CM400, although I will likely upgrade that soon to an SH775.

The connectors don't match, but that's a piffling detail. You'll want to use good quality spade connectors run directly to the R/R anyway. Crimping is best, but only if it's done right. Since you're obviously too cheap to buy a high quality crimper, you'll want to solder the connectors.

 

[Steve]

..., I bought the WRONG USED STATOR. a 1982 GS1100G uses a larger stator than a 1982 GS1100T which is supposedly the same as what I need.

Just out of curiosity, how much did that used stator cost you? Just the money, not the time.

I ask because a week and a half ago, back in post #2, it was suggested that you can get a NEW stator (with a warranty, I believe) for about $50.

.

 

[posplayr]

With respect to Aluminum v.s. copper wire:

Specific resistance (ohmscir/milft) (20?C ref) Copper=10.6 Aluminum=18.52

http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Alum-Copper?TNR=White Papers|Alum-Copper|generic

so you can infer that for the same size wire there will be 85% more power dissipated in a stator wound with aluminum v.s. copper wire. This assumes that the stators were at the same temperature, but because the hotter stator will have higher resistance (due to the elevated temperature) you have a positive feedback (increase temp==>increases resistance==>increase power==>increases temp==> and on and on) which will elevate the power much more than the 85%. It depends to a large extent on how the heat gets out, for example how much oil might be in the statro cover and getting to cool the stator. whole lot of variables.

For those that need a refresher, the RMS current in stator needs to be at least about 15 amps for a series R/R and the shunt is much higher . Power in the stator is Power = Current X Current X Resistance. (P=I^2*R)
This is independent of the way the stator is wound when at something about 3500 RPM.

Assuming a shunt r/r that is already burning up a copper stator, how long a will an aluminum would stator would last? I is probably not going to be very long indeed.

 

[tirebiter]

Steve, the used 1982 GS1100G stator cost me 2500 of my pinched pennies which included free shipping. The used Polaris rectifier/regulator added another 3749 of my pinched/scrimped together and saved pennies. I had spent $5.00 on the 17 gauge high temperature magnet wire previously and never mind how much (minivan fuel hog) gas to drive about 40 miles round trip to pick it up. The Glyptal was about $7. I also have spent another $14 for these little gems :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Regulator-R...ash=item43d8fb6415:g:yVoAAOSwNSxU~yBm&vxp=mtr

and another $47.89 for what is touted as a "high output stator", a new one that says it is an exact fit for my GS850L. The last two items are scheduled to arrive in the mail, tomorrow. I still may get in a bit of warm weather holiday time on my Little Suzy.

If it wasn't for this forum I'd probably still be trying to wind the stator yet again !!! Who says I've smartened up ?

 

[tirebiter]

For those who might be keeping score at home they are FURUKAWA brand, electrical connectors.