81 GS650L - Charging Voltage at 5,000 RPM?

[posplayr]

I do not understand the "so much for using an ohmmeter". The test said to use AC Voltage with 100 V range. My multi-meter is auto-sensing. Resistance tests in earlier steps did not show a problem.

The exact same type of tests using an ohmmeter and a VAC meter contradict; which one do you believe?

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...W-of-Stator-testing&highlight=revised+phase+B

 

[DaveP]

Thanks. I see what you are saying. I did not expect anything different in the final test when the first 3 were ok. The last test is not something that is in the service manual and I am not too knowledgeable in this subject. (civil engineer with on circuits class way back in school).

More reading to do.

 

[Steve]

Just to clarify the test:

As posplayr mentioned, the stator is supposed to be isolated from the battery and/or chassis. For the purpose of these tests, label the output wires "A", "B" and "C". For the output test, put the meter in AC volts, 100 volt range (or auto-sense). Put the leads on A and B, record the reading. Leads on B and C, record the reading. Leads on C and A, record the reading.

Now for the second part, put one meter lead on a "ground" point. Could be chassis or battery negative terminal. Leave it there for the next three tests. Put the other lead on stator wire A, record the reading. Lead on B, record the reading, Lead on C, record the reading.

That second set of tests will check the insulation on the stator windings to see if it is breaking down with increased voltage applied.

Question for posplayr: I know that most of our stators are wound "delta". What if it's wound "wye"? Doesn't that have a chassis reference point? If so, wouldn't that show voltage in the "single lead to ground" test?

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[posplayr]

I don't know for sure but I would not expect anybody to ground the center of a wye to ground.

 

[Steve]

I just don't do enough three-phase stuff to know much about it.

.

 

[posplayr]

Thanks. I see what you are saying. I did not expect anything different in the final test when the first 3 were ok. The last test is not something that is in the service manual and I am not too knowledgeable in this subject. (civil engineer with on circuits class way back in school).

More reading to do.

This has as much to do with reliability engineering and decision theoretics. Those "Laws of Stator testsing" are a qualitative statement of an analytic notion of tests thoroughness.

An easy way perhaps to think about the concept is if you have an inner tube (analogous to the stator insulation) and you suspect the inner tube might be old and cracked although it doesn't look too bad. You try to push your finger(analogous to voltage in the stator tests) through the rubber. You push a little and you stretch the rubber a little but you are not really stressing it much (low voltage test). You decide to give it a real go and really press your finger through the rubber.

One of two things will happen, You either pierce the rubber in which case you figure it is no good, or the rubber survives and you figure it has plenty of life left. The easy push appears to pass but only so much as you have confidence in that amount of pressure being indicative of actual service. The real confidence comes when you really stress the rubber and it passes. Same thing with stator tests. The more voltage you can pass the test with the better the insulation.

 

[dantodd]

I think you're misreading his leg-to-ground resistance.

My guess is that he isn't very conversant in using a multimeter and is restoring a reating of "0.L" which is likely an open circuit or "over limit" of resistance measurement.


My guess is that either the R/R has been half a volt low for 30 years or is just starting to go. The stator looks good to me. If it were my bike is be replacing the R/R and keep the stator as-is for now. Also, solder is much better than crimp. If you really want crimp connectors then buy a proper crimper. Unfortunately proper crimper are over $100 and that's a lot of soldering to justify the expense.

 

[posplayr]

I think you're misreading his leg-to-ground resistance.

My guess is that he isn't very conversant in using a multimeter and is restoring a reating of "0.L" which is likely an open circuit or "over limit" of resistance measurement.


My guess is that either the R/R has been half a volt low for 30 years or is just starting to go. The stator looks good to me. If it were my bike is be replacing the R/R and keep the stator as-is for now. Also, solder is much better than crimp. If you really want crimp connectors then buy a proper crimper. Unfortunately proper crimper are over $100 and that's a lot of soldering to justify the expense.

The message here is to ignore the ohmmeter, so not sure how misreading it matters?

 

[tom203]

I don't know for sure but I would not expect anybody to ground the center of a wye to ground.

They wouldn't for these stators.. All the ones that I've checked are wye wound with the "center" insulated from ground and windings. A delta wound stator would produce less voltage at lower rpms (i.e,idle) than the wye wound version- not good if you'd like to have some charging at idle.

For normal AC transformer stuff, the wye configuration typically gives you 220V between two phases, plus 120V from one phase to center connection which is brought out to a terminal.

 

[Steve]

Also, solder is much better than crimp. If you really want crimp connectors then buy a proper crimper. Unfortunately proper crimper are over $100 and that's a lot of soldering to justify the expense.

There are some misleading assumptions and some missing qualifiers there. :-k

A "properly-done" crimp is better than the "average" soldered connection.

PROPERLY-DONE soldering might be "better than crimp", but that would be a "typically-done" or "average" crimp, not one that is properly done. Too often, solder will wick past the joint, making the wire stiff well beyond the strain relief, which will put undue stress on an unsupported section of wire. Solder is not to be considered a structural part of the joint. There should be a good mechanical connection (twist, etc.) of clean wires, then the solder is applied to prevent corrosion on the wire.

There are good crimpers that are available for about $35. Yes, these are proper crimpers, not just expensive ones from the big box stores. Replaceable dies, too, for different types of crimps. A good solder station will cost you far more than $35. :-\\\

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[DaveP]

They wouldn't for these stators.. All the ones that I've checked are wye wound with the "center" insulated from ground and windings. A delta wound stator would produce less voltage at lower rpms (i.e,idle) than the wye wound version- not good if you'd like to have some charging at idle.

For normal AC transformer stuff, the wye configuration typically gives you 220V between two phases, plus 120V from one phase to center connection which is brought out to a terminal.

Tom, Having the same bike, have you performed the stator tests? 0 volts on the lead to ground test?

Thanks,
Dave

Side-note: I do have a good ratcheting crimper with dies for red, blue, and yellow connectors for $30. It works very well. Spent my high school and college summers working at a marina and working with installations/repairs of various 12v systems (lights, pumps, radios...) and just had a basic hardware store set of crimpers. There is a big difference to what I have now.

 

[Nessism]

Harbor Freight sells a decent quality set of ratcheting crimping pliers with the blue/red/yellow dies. These just crush the terminals flat though. I also have a set of automotive type crimping pliers as purchased from Vintage Connection that rolls over the crimp terminals and those create a superior joint. You need the appropriate connectors of course.

 

[tom203]

Tom, Having the same bike, have you performed the stator tests? 0 volts on the lead to ground test?

I did the ohm and AC test stuff when I was messing with my bike's charging issues. Quickly scanning over this thread, I 'd say your stator has life in it (14 volts is ok), but my advice is to ditch that original r/r ASAP and opt for the SH-775 to help your stator survive. I changed out two stators, got tired of it and went for the SH-775 in june 2013 .No charging issues since and that is with a previously used stator.
My onboard meter indicates that after startup,my charging voltage runs about 14.2, but after some running, it falls to about 14 or a litle less as everything warms up. Not sure if it's meter, r/r, battery ,or stator that is causing variations.

 

[posplayr]

I have about 5 sets of crimper now for various wire/crimp sizes including replaceable dies, HOWEVER these are the most versatile becuase they crimp conductor and insulation separately you can experiment and get a good crimp on both with whatever combinations you might have. Otherwise you will need to have a matched pair. Unless you are going to specialize these are really all you really need.

Realize that these have a rather unique parallelogram design that actually squeezed the crimps v.s. a scissor type crimper (even my expensive molex) that will switch the contact ends. While being some of the most inexpensive, they are a better fundamental design.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Excellent-M...0635&clkid=6753565157701224237&_qi=RTM2247625

 

[posplayr]

Tom, Having the same bike, have you performed the stator tests? 0 volts on the lead to ground test?

Thanks,
Dave

Side-note: I do have a good ratcheting crimper with dies for red, blue, and yellow connectors for $30. It works very well. Spent my high school and college summers working at a marina and working with installations/repairs of various 12v systems (lights, pumps, radios...) and just had a basic hardware store set of crimpers. There is a big difference to what I have now.

If your ohm meter shows no connectivity between ground and each leg(i.e. no intentional ground), then you should certainly see no voltage between legs and the same ground.

 

[DaveP]

I did the ohm and AC test stuff when I was messing with my bike's charging issues. Quickly scanning over this thread, I 'd say your stator has life in it (14 volts is ok), but my advice is to ditch that original r/r ASAP and opt for the SH-775 to help your stator survive. I changed out two stators, got tired of it and went for the SH-775 in june 2013 .No charging issues since and that is with a previously used stator.
My onboard meter indicates that after startup,my charging voltage runs about 14.2, but after some running, it falls to about 14 or a litle less as everything warms up. Not sure if it's meter, r/r, battery ,or stator that is causing variations.

SH775 and wiring lead kit ordered.

 

[tom203]

SH775 and wiring lead kit ordered.

Good idea - A reliable charging system is a must have feature!

 

[posplayr]

Question for posplayr: I know that most of our stators are wound "delta". What if it's wound "wye"? Doesn't that have a chassis reference point? If so, wouldn't that show voltage in the "single lead to ground" test?

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Steve,
Looking back at Dave's post below, he measured an open on leg to ground using an Ohmmeter implying his stator is not intended to be in anyway connected to case.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...ng-Voltage-at-5-000-RPM&p=2309962#post2309962

It is strange that we have seen similar reported leg ground results that are consistent across legs and at about mid range of the 80 VAC spec at 5K rpm. I don't know if people are doing this truly open loop or getting confused and doing time with the R/R connected or not. The alternative is that perhaps there is some common point that seems to be getting damaged and showing this type of consistent reading. I think from vague recollection this might be about the 3rd time there has been this type of leg/groudn result.

Remember the leg ground test was originally proposed by Griffin as he had apparently been using it for some time and IIRC claimed ".....he had never seen a good stator fail this test......".

This is certainly consistent with my proposed Theory of stator testing that in a nutshell you can only believe failed tests not passed tests unless you are exceeding the operational range of the stator voltage.

 

[DaveP]

First to confirm the R/R is not connected to the stator when performing any of these tests on the stator.

I found a test on another site today, http://cycleelectricinc.com/Diegnosing Alternators.htm, that I would like hear what you think of the validity. It is the section on testing for shorts to ground. They suggest using a 12v test light to test from the lead to ground and the stator is bad if the light turns on.

"The best way to test for shorts to ground is with a 12-volt test light. Sometimes an ohms meter will not pick up a short to ground. The light test is better.Using a standard automotive test light, connect the ground clip to a good ground. Test the light by touching the probe to something positive such as the positive battery terminal. The light should light indicating you have a good ground. Now you are ready to start the test.

Unplug the regulator from the stator and start the motor. Probe each stator pin with the test light one at a time. If the bulb lights when connected between any of the stator plug pins and ground the stator is shorted and needs to be replaced.

If you get proper AC voltage and the stator is not grounded (no light) the stator and rotor are good. At this point you can assume the problem is either a bad connection between the regulator and the battery or the regulator is bad."

In my case, the test light clipped to the same engine grounding point as the multi-meter will not light up when touched to stator lead. At the same time, the multi-meter is still reading volts on the lead to ground. The test light operation was confirmed from this grounding point to positive battery terminal.

 

[Grimly]

That's for a Hardly at idle, though.
It may be a valid enough test for a GS stator but I've never tried it, so can't say if the idle voltage will approach 12 or not. It probably does, but you'd need to give it a go and see.
This is why the 5Krpm 80V AC test is good; because if it reaches that, it's good up to that. An idle reading doesn't say much or anything about what may happen above that.