82-83 GS1100 Top End Oiler Install

[Nessism]

The oil pressure switch is a simple plunger that makes a ground path when the plunger is contacting metal. On a stock bike the plunger contacts the top of the oil port in the engine; when oil is burbling up out of the port, it pushes the plunger out of the way which disrupts the ground path, causing the light to go out.

For your bike Josh, the plunger must be contacting metal all the time which is keeping the switch from turning off. You might want to pull the adapter plate off and take a close look at the plunger to see if it's hanging up somewhere - perhaps on the side of the plunger.

Good luck.

 

[posplayr]

Top end oiler

Top end oiler

I want to reiterate a couple of points that I thought were clear from the first few posts to this thread.

On both the 8V and 1100/1150 motors:

a.) the oil pump pushes oil through the filter and then to a pressure switch under the carbs.
b.) The dynamic pressure of the oil coming out of this center port directly under the rear cover (the same force of air you feel pushing your hand when you hold it outside of the car at 55 mph) pushes the plate on the switch, opening a contact (in the switch) and the light goes out on your dash. In other words, it is not actually static pressure under the plate, but rather the flow hitting the plate head on that makes the switch work.

The only way to retain the OEM operation is to keep the plate in the orifice hole. Terry has repositioned the switch plate and apparently modified the switch spring to get proper operation? Maybe he could explain it better.

c.) In the third post of this thread is shown the Suzuki manual for a GS1100 but it is virtually the same flow from this central orifice for the 8V motors. It was presented that all of the pressure under the cover is at the same pressure for a stock configuration, and so any opening (like the rear fitting I showed) to feed a top end oiler will supply oil to the cams and largly leave the primary flow undisteurbed.

However.....

d.) The concept of capturing all of the flow and routing it outside of the engine (i.e. to the top end oiler) would completely upset the primary oil flow (exception: unless it was returned back to the plate to continue the normal flow) Terry 8V combo adapter apparently does show this return.

So for a simple Top End Oiler install (8V or 1100/1150) without trying to run additional 8V plumbing for a cooler, it would be a bad mistake to capture all of the oil flow and try and push it to the cams.

Capturing all of the oil flow is accomplished by running a tube down the center of the adapter. If someone were to install this tube with a top end oiler they would be starving the motor according to an analysis of the Suzuki provided engine description. See below.

Whoever designed a tube to capture all of the flow for a GS 8V or Gs1100/1150 top end oiler and route all the oil to the cams alone doesn't understand what they are doing or they plan on running a "dry sump" system (intended or not)

I would suggest doing "before and after adapter/oiler" pressure tests at the indicated position (VDO gauge) to make sure the pressure/flow has not been upset. The position is the recommended gauge position that RenoBruce puts his side gauges at.

Posplayr

 

[Nessism]

If I understand right, Terry's Top-End Oiler adapter has a cross-drilled (3mm holes) extension piece that picks up the oil from the oil port in the engine. These holes allow oil to feed the transmission thus keep it from oil starving. My question is whether or not these holes, which will bleed off oil flow, will feed enough oil up through the oil pressure switch to turn off the light at idle.

One one of my early iterations in building an oil cooler adapter used an extension piece to pick up the oil that allowed some bleed off - adapter extension did not fit down tightly on the oil feed port. In the end there was enough oil bleed off so the oil pressure light would come on at idle. Making a new extension that cap 100% of the oil flow worked much better in terms of keeping the light off.

 

[posplayr]

Nessism

Nessism

Terry would be the best to explain how his Top end oiler and his combo oiler cooler adapters work. From his description to me they are really two different animals although he seems to be treating them similarly.

I ran some numbers and I would be very concerned no matter what the cross drilling is using 3 mm holes on an top end oiler.

The cross drilling (which controls how much of the primary oil supply is being captured), there may or may not be any issues with oil supply on the combo unit, I don't know how it is modified internal. Here are some numbers for how many 3 mm cross drills would be required to support the total flow from the central orifice assuming it is 3/4" (I can't measure one at the moment)

It would take 20 cross drills to equal the area of the primary supply port. Hopefully he is not capturing as much as he thinks and has a loose fit on that neck

hole size (diameter) 3.00 3.00 mm
per hole area 7.07 7.07 mm^2
Tube cross drills 1.00 20.00
total area 14.14 282.74 mm^2
equivalent port size 4.24 18.97 mm

required size 18.75 mm
hole area 276.12 mm^2


Any way below is my suggestion to modify Terry's Top end oiler adapter to retain exact function of the OEM pressure switch, provide a supply of oil to the top end oiler after the pressure switch and leave the primary flow of oil to the galleries unaffected save for the small supply being allowed to escape to the cams.

The trick here is to retain the exact same configuration of the pressure switch plate at the end of the shaft. It has to be in the primary port so that the flow can push on it. At the same time in order to make enough room to put oiler ports or other sensor ports, we need to raise the screw in sensor device. An extension on the shaft will leave the pressure plate in the original position but allow the room required for other port take-offs. I'm going to prototype this just waiting on some parts. It will do exactly what my existing original solutions does, it will just give me the option to add additional sensor ports plus clean up the look a little.

If there was a legacy 8V cooler adapter someone had that had proper operation for the pressure switch this adapter could be used in conjunction.

Posplayr

The only question about this solution is how stiff the shaft extension needs to be or if it needs to be supported by a bearing surface. I dont think so.


I think there is some misunderstanding going on about the pressure switch and how it operates based on oil flow. While there will be pressure in the system if there is flow from the pump, putting teh sensor into a pressurized volume will not activate it. The pressure switch plate (at the end of the shaft) requires flow of sufficent flow rate ( alternatively dynamic pressure) to push the plate. There has to be flow against the plate not just local pressure to depress the pressure switch. Thsi is why TCK switch doesnt work, the plate has been pulled out of the primary port and so it will take a huge flow volume to get enough flow in the open area to push against the switch plate. Depending upon the distances it may not be possible.

 

[terry]

Has any one here got a WARDS Vortex adapter on their bike? The WARDS Vortex adapter uses a pickup tube just like mine, but I don't know if it's cross drilled, like mine is.

As far as the possibility of oil starvation concerns go, the 3mm holes in my pickup tube are roughly 3 times the ID of most top end oiler hoses, so I doubt if that's really a concern.

The new top end oiler/oil cooler adapter will work fine on all GS Suzuki's from the GS750 to the 1150. Cheers, Terry.

 

[Guest]

Has any one here got a WARDS Vortex adapter on their bike? The WARDS Vortex adapter uses a pickup tube just like mine, but I don't know if it's cross drilled, like mine is.

As far as the possibility of oil starvation concerns go, the 3mm holes in my pickup tube are roughly 3 times the ID of most top end oiler hoses, so I doubt if that's really a concern.

The new top end oiler/oil cooler adapter will work fine on all GS Suzuki's from the GS750 to the 1150. Cheers, Terry.

Terry/Posplayr,

I would just like to say thanks to both of you for looking into this issue in such depth. I think you both have brought some great ideas for discussion. I work at an R&D lab and we don't have this much peer review going on so hopefully we'll get some answers and the knowege base and product options will move forward.

Posplayr did your kit come with a pick up collar? I think either Ward's bought Vortex or the other way around and it could be that they don't include it any more. My kit was in new packaging but I got it off Ebay and can't say how old it might be. I also didn't get any instructions.

The collar is a perfect fit for the recess on the under side of the Vortex cover. The collar is .73 inches high when you just measure the metal but if you include the O ring on top, its .76 inches high. I don't know if the o ring was meant to be up towards the plate or down down towards the pick up tube.

The i.d. is .49 and the o.d. is .92 inches. When the collar is inserted into the recess in the Votex cover with the oil ring touching the plate, it projects .60 inches below the cover plate. So the recess in the cover is about .32 inches deep. There is no cross drilling in this collar.

The casting on the OEM cover doesn't seem (visually) to extend this far down (I haven't measured it) so you would suspect Suzuki wants the oil to flow evenly under the cover.

It seems like Ward's wanted to direct the majority if not all of the flow up through the Top End oiler.

The elimination of the temp sensor and pressure switch on the Wards cover seems to indicate its primary customer was going to be a drag racer as opposed to a street rider.
I wonder if any of the engine builders know the history. I'm also wondering if the collar was only meant to adapt the top end oiler for one specific application (high pressure 750 maybe?).

In the end the major question is how do we determine if the hydrant is safe and effective? Posplayr you mentioned VDO gauge checks before and after. What would the baseline be, the Vortex cover with or without the collar, feeding the Vortex Tee and checked at the end of the top end oiler hose?

This would then be checked against Terry's hydrant, your modified hydrant & extended pressure switch shaft, and possibly the unit your running now attached to the temp sensor port.

Or are you saying to just watch the VDO gauge attached to the oil gallery plug on the side of the engine under both senarios? From what you've said about your current set up your happy with the engine pressure at various rpms but it doesn't seem like we know how much oil is going up the cooler hoses with that set up.

 

[terry]

G'DayTom, thanks for that mate, say, how about one of you guys in America give Wards a call and ask them about the pickup tube? I think it'd be great if instead of arguing about what we THINK is correct, we go to the "horses mouth" and ask the guys at Wards?

In the interim, I'm gonna run my cooler/top end oiler adapter on my GS1000S for the next few months to do some home-grown "R&D", I'm really excited about the prospect of running a top end oiler on it as well as a cooler, the engine's done around 50,000 pretty hard miles, and I'm sure I can hear the cams shuffling around in dry bearings, so a good spray of oil certainly won't hurt it, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

 

[posplayr]

Isleoman

Isleoman

Terry/Posplayr,

I would just like to say thanks to both of you for looking into this issue in such depth. I think you both have brought some great ideas for discussion.

I work at an R&D lab and we don't have this much peer review going on so hopefully we'll get some answers and the knowege base and product options will move forward.

I guess you guys are not CMMI Level 3 yet

Posplayr did your kit come with a pick up collar? I think either Ward's bought Vortex or the other way around and it could be that they don't include it any more. My kit was in new packaging but I got it off Ebay and can't say how old it might be. I also didn't get any instructions.

Mine had no collar or neck. This is what I bought. i have seen others advertised that included provision for the oil sensor switch

http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=326398&showprevnext=1

The collar is a perfect fit for the recess on the under side of the Vortex cover. The collar is .73 inches high when you just measure the metal but if you include the O ring on top, its .76 inches high. I don't know if the o ring was meant to be up towards the plate or down down towards the pick up tube.

The i.d. is .49 and the o.d. is .92 inches. When the collar is inserted into the recess in the Votex cover with the oil ring touching the plate, it projects .60 inches below the cover plate. So the recess in the cover is about .32 inches deep. There is no cross drilling in this collar.

The casting on the OEM cover doesn't seem (visually) to extend this far down (I haven't measured it) so you would suspect Suzuki wants the oil to flow evenly under the cover.

It seems like Ward's wanted to direct the majority if not all of the flow up through the Top End oiler.

The elimination of the temp sensor and pressure switch on the Wards cover seems to indicate its primary customer was going to be a drag racer as opposed to a street rider.

In speaking with Chef , he said the racers have so much power and flow from the pump they blow out their oil seals in the cylinder. The actually plug them. In this case you could reduce the pressure by causing a back flow as i showed in my analysis where all of the flow from the Central port is captured. i think Robersto said something similar about plugging main cylinder oil galleries.

In the end the major question is how do we determine if the hydrant is safe and effective? Posplayr you mentioned VDO gauge checks before and after. What would the baseline be, the Vortex cover with or without the collar, feeding the Vortex Tee and checked at the end of the top end oiler hose?

There are many combinations but the first one of concern for me would be the Hydrant top end oiler configuration.

The baseline would establish oil pressures as measured at the side gallery with a VDO gauge as well as at the cam gallery at the top of the cylinder (two VDO gauges required or just swap and measure averages). These static pressure gauges will not alter any flow from stock. If we want to be really anal we can check the left cam galley as well.

The next test would insure that the gallery pressure (lower end of the cylinder ) was not compromised (i.e. much lower pressures) and that there is an increased in pressure associated with increased flow at the cams.

In addition it would be comforting if the pressure switch still operated which one of the main purposes of the hydrant.

You could do the same test with all three.

This would then be checked against Terry's hydrant, your modified hydrant & extended pressure switch shaft, and possibly the unit your running now attached to the temp sensor port.

Or are you saying to just watch the VDO gauge attached to the oil gallery plug on the side of the engine under both scenarios? From what you've said about your current set up your happy with the engine pressure at various rpms but it doesn't seem like we know how much oil is going up the cooler hoses with that set up

From my setup:

* Ad-hock T of T for oiler and temp sensor
* high performance gears
* oil cooler
* top end oiler

and having seen my current pressure measurements I know the following:

a.) The pressure in the gallery (3 psi at idle, 6 psi at 5K rpm and 9 psi at 8-9K rpm) is sufficient to insure that there is more than enough oil pressure for the crankshaft and transmission while providing flow to the top end oiler.

b.) The parallel path between cylinder to cams and oiler to cams essentially guarantees more oil flow to cams than stock.


Posplayr

 

[posplayr]

Terry

Terry

I was planning on calling them Ward tommorow.

Remember this oiler is not approved for street use so i might not be able to
A.) speak with the right person or
B.) get a straight answer.

I'll try.

Posplayr

 

[terry]

Thanks mate, I appreciate your efforts! Cheers, Terry.

 

[Guest]

I was planning on calling them Ward tommorow.

Remember this oiler is not approved for street use so i might not be able to
A.) speak with the right person or
B.) get a straight answer.

I'll try.

Posplayr

Did a search and found this.

www.dragbike.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6344

I wasn't able to open this at work but could see some of the cached emails by clicking on "Cached" . Most of these racers seem to be saying leave aluminum sleeve out or risk crank damage. Also a lot of recommendations to "dry block". Not sure I want to bother with that procedure till I need to open head up again.

The thread also says instructions are available here.

http://www.wardperformance.com/topendoilkit instructions.htm

I can't open instructions at work either

 

[Guest]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=108930&highlight=oiler

Saw that rosco15 had provided input on the Dragbike.com reference above. Did a search on GSR and found thread above. We seem to be re-inventing the same wheel.

 

[posplayr]

Spoke with someone knowledgeable at Ward today

Spoke with someone knowledgeable at Ward today

It was a short discussion.

Question I posed:

What is the recommendation for configuring the sensor cover for the Ward top end oiler on a street application?

http://www.wardperformance.com/topendoilingkit.htm

Answer:

"We no longer provide the Neck".

"There can be problems with the Neck".

"The Neck is used to reverse the oil flow in the engine as the engine it is being fed solely from the top end oiler to the cams and then to the rest of the motor".

"For street applications leave the neck OUT".

End of phone call.

Hope that answers the questions. This confirms what I have been saying. I will summarize what I think I know about oiler function for street v.s. race applications.


The neck is primarily for drag racing ONLY. From what I have heard (no expert on racing ), there is so much pressure build up in the engine, that the top end oiler is used to:

1.) Capture all flow with a neck
2.) Limit the flow of oil due to the reduced line size
3.) reverse oil flow in the engine
4.) generally reduce oil pressure in the engine to avoid blowing out cylinder gaskets.

For a street application the oiler function is as follows:

1.) Tap into the sensor cover so that the oiler can be supplied with a small portion of the oil flow available to the galleries. The amount of flow to the oiler should not significantly reduce the pressure in the galleries.
2.) The dual oil path for the cams a.) through the cylinder and b.) through the oiler insures the cams always see more flow that without the oiler.
3.) GS750 gears can increase oil flow and thereby insure that the oiler can be feed by the primary oil flow and the galleries still stay at above OEM pressures.

Posplayr

 

[terry]

Thanks for that guys, very interesting! Cheers, Terry.

 

[rosco15]

I see this is an old thread, but just as an update. I had suffered alot of bearing wear with that sleeve and o-ring installed under the plate for the topend oiler. Now that I run without the sleeve and o-ring everything looks great when I take the motor apart. So I would strongly suggest to never run with that sleeve in place.

 

[posplayr]

Data from the feild thanx Rosco

Data from the feild thanx Rosco

So I would strongly suggest to never run with that sleeve in place.

This the same conclusion I got from asking Ward the direct question about the neck. They called it a "neck" rather than a "sleeve"

Answer:

"We no longer provide the Neck".

"There can be problems with the Neck".

"The Neck is used to reverse the oil flow in the engine as the engine it is being fed solely from the top end oiler to the cams and then to the rest of the motor".

"For street applications leave the neck OUT".

End of phone call.

As described in the two posts above, caturing all of the flow with the neck and routing it to the valves reverses the oil flow through the engine and can starve the engine unless yu really have alot of pressure build up.

For STREET it is NOT REQUIRED AND A BAD IDEA to use the NECK see Rrosco's comments above.

Thanks for the comments

Pos