'82 GS1100G Tensioner question

[willie]

I presently have the carbs and manifolds off my 1100 to rebuild the carbs and replace the manifolds and o-rings. While I have access, I thought I'd turn the knob on the tensioner. I was surprised that it won't budge in the least, even with quite a bit of force. Correct me if I'm mistaken, as there's always a 1st time , but shouldn't that tensioner knob move, at least in one direction? If so, looks like I'll be attending to it too while I have access.

 

[Nessism]

You might want to set the engine to 1-4 T and then pull it off. There are a couple of different seals inside which are good to replace. Not to mention, you can make sure it's not binding up.

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

Here?s the cam chain tensioner rebuild guide found on BikeCliff?s Website site. Linked the file cause it may be hard to find if you don?t know where to look.

 

[willie]

Thanks guys. I removed the tensioner today and, as I did, the knob turned. I checked the movement once I had it off and in my hand and it appears to work smoothly. No idea what the problem may've been but thankful all is well. Thanks again and happy holidays!

 

[Redman]

Do find the tutorail about rebuilding the tensioner if it was leaking oil.

At least find good instructions for reinstalling it correctly.

 

[willie]

Wasn't leaking a drop. Thanks

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

Before you reinstall it, be sure you know the correct procedure. Failure to do so will result in nothing good. Consult the rebuild guide I linked above.

 

[willie]

I appreciate the additional responses. I will admit that I didn't disassemble the tensioner. I removed it to see why the knob wouldn't move in either direction. My theory was that it was being held in place because the threaded shaft with the locknut was never loosened after it was installed the last time. However, the plunger did come out a bit as I removed the tensioner body so I don't know why the knob wouldn't budge. So, with the tensioner assembly in my hand, I loosened the locknut and threaded shaft, removed the plunger and inspected it before sliding it back in it's bore. Then, I moved it in and out to check for binding. There was none. I then, pushed the plunger in all the way, tightened the threaded shaft, reinstalled the assembly, loosened the threaded shaft and tightened the locknut with the shaft turned out about 1/4 - 1/2 turn from making contact with the plunger. Am I good to go?

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

Not an expert, but that sounds right to me, as long as the flat part of the plunger shaft was aligned with where the bottom of the set screw ends up. Set screw should have been tight against the flat spot for reinstallation. Then the 1/4 to 1/2 lefty turn of the set screw after reinsertion allows the plunger to ride in and out on its spring. But the end of the set screw lives in the flat spot, keeping the plunger from coming all the way out.

 

[Nessism]

Don't forget to retighten the lock nut after you back off the set screw.

 

[willie]

Thanks again guys, really. Funny, in a way, but I woke up around 3AM this morning, worried about how I may've screwed things up. Your latest responses offer a great deal of relief. However, a couple of details came to mind that I forgot to include in my last reponse, really. Here they are.
I realize we can't turn back time but 2 of my regrets are that I didn't have cylinders 1 & 4 at TDC when I removed the tensioner and that I didn't remove the rag I had covering the cams when I removed the tensioner so I could see if either cam moved when I loosened the tensioner. That said, yet another detail comes to mind.
When I bought this bike, the seller told me that it wasn't firing on cylinders 2 & 3. I figured that was due to a bad coil. However, both coils are getting the same voltage and have the same resistance across the terminals. The valve clearances were out of spec but not much. Of course, I'm still in "diagnosis and tune-up mode" so I haven't tried firing it up yet. I could also see that the intake manifolds were leaking so I got but haven't installed the new o-rings I bought. Also, when I removed the manifolds, all of them had rubber delaminating from the metal flanges. New ones are enroute and should arrive this week.
Another thing that struck me as odd, when I was checking the valve clearances was that the marks on the cam sprockets weren't in the same position with regard to the head surface as I turned the crank. I seem to recall that the marks I'm referring to are supposed to both be in the same position. These are slightly off. Is this a valid concern?
Finally, a consideration of sorts along with an apology for being so wordy in my responses. I feel the more info the better. Anyway, the consideration being that, most times, when buying a used vehicle, the buyer has no real idea about the history of that vehicle and, especially when the buyer doesn't hear it run has to rely upon the knowledge, honesty and integrity of the seller. That matter applies here.
So, now that, I have included quite a bit of additional info, I'm really looking forward to your responses which I continue to be thankful for.

 

[Redman]

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.I didn't remove the rag I had covering the cams when I removed the tensioner so I could see if either cam moved when I loosened the tensioner. .
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. .. .. .. .. .. .. .... .. .. I seem to recall that the marks I'm referring to are supposed to both be in the same position. These are slightly off. Is this a valid concern?..

WHen removing (or doiung anything) with the tensioner, the concern is not so much that the cams move, but more that the chain skips some teeth on a sprocket (weither cam moved or not).
Other concern is that with the tensioner removed; turning the crank can cause the chain to skip.

Yes, cam "timing" is a concern. If off a little bit the engine will run but not as well as it should. If have crankshaft 180 degress from where it should (say on mark for 2-3 not the mark for 1-4) when set the cams, it aint gonna run.

I am not the gear head to be giving much advise on such engine stuff, but setting the cams is something I have direct expereince with, but limited.

No, cam marks are not suppose to be "the same".
Without being two detailed: Exhaust cam has a arrow 1 and arrow 2 (about 90 degrees away). With crank in proper position (T mark for 1-4), arrow 1 should be pointing about horizontal at the top surface of the head (cam cover surface) and then arrow 2 will be pointing about straight up, count a certain number of chain pins (something like 20, dont recall) and that should be where the arrow 3 on intake cam is positioned which is somewhat staroight up. Difficult detail I had with all that is putting cams in position, then putting on the cam caps. THe trick was to have the arrow 1 (on exhaust cam without the caps bolted down) pointing slightly bellow the surfac, and putting on the cam caps the cams move down and arrow moves some, wanted to end up so that when bolted down the cam caps the arrow 1 was then about level pointing at the surface. Okay, my descrtiption wasnt so brief, but stil left out some details. (I have a posting about it........)

>> later note: yes, it is 20 pins.

and here is the link
https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?262314-install-exhaust-cam-82-1100G

 

[Redman]

Is typical recomendaion to not turn crank/cams when tensioner is removed, out of cconcern for the chain skipping some teeth on a cam.


AH, you are not so much asking about installing cams.
You are asking about checking cam positions.

TO check:
- Turn crank to position of 1-4T mark to the pickup on the left (1-4 piston should be at top).
- the Arrow 1 on exhaust cam should be pointing about level with top of head/cam cover surface.
- find the arrow 2, count chain pins, the pin at the arrow 2 is pin1, count to 20 and that pin20 should be at arrow 3 on intake cam.

 

[willie]

I'm a little confused about your instructions so let me respond and comment, in bold, to the parts that are the source of that confusion. Keep in mind that I'm not inferring or stressing anything by using the bold letters. Thanks.

Is typical recomendaion to not turn crank/cams when tensioner is removed, out of cconcern for the chain skipping some teeth on a cam.
Fortunately, I have not moved the crank/cams since reinstalling the tensioner


AH, you are not so much asking about installing cams.
You are asking about checking cam positions.
Correct

TO check:
- Turn crank to position of 1-4T mark to the pickup on the left (1-4 piston should be at top). Not sure of what pickup you're referring to on the left.
- the Arrow 1 on exhaust cam should be pointing about level with top of head/cam cover surface. I've noticed a "-" mark on the sprockets but no arrows. I'll look again though
- find the arrow 2, on which cam?count chain pins, the pin at the arrow 2 is pin1, count to 20 and that pin20 should be at arrow 3 on intake cam.

I'm guessing that you're referring to counting the chain pics from the arrow on one cam to the arrow on the opposite cam, correct?

THANKS for your advice and patience.

 

[Redman]

Glad to help. Although I didnt mean for my description to be a complete tutorial on everythihng, was just trying to answer question or comment on points you mentioned.

To comment further on the points you mentioned.

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Not sure of what pickup you're referring to on the left.
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I'm guessing that you're referring to counting the chain pics from the arrow on one cam to the arrow on the opposite cam, correct?

THANKS for your advice and patience.

THe 1-4T mark on the ignition plate (name?description?) that turns with crank should be lined up with the ignition pickup on the left (not the one on right for 2-3)

Yes, count pins starting with the pin AT arrow2 on exhaust cam, and the 20th pin should be at the arrow3 on the intake cam. (not pins between the arrows). The arrows are on the cam sprockets, on the side you can see from the ignition cover side of the bike.

 

[Redman]

THis pic from my posting doesnt show the 1 - 2- 3 arrows very well, but can see them. Pictures in any manaul will show it all better.

1 & 2 on exhaust cam sprocket (on right, front of engine), 3 on the intake (on left, rear of engine).
THe arrows are on the sprockets, only on this side that can see in this picture.

Use this picture only to see the 1 - 2 - 3 arrows. THe picture was taken when I had a couple different problems going on, so not a good example for much of anything.

 

[willie]

Okay, I'm feeling pretty good about there being exactly 20 pins between the arrows. Just want to make sure that the T 1-4 mark you mentioned is the mark that's located between the T and the F. This is the mark I'm referring to and, perhaps its not important if it isn't because there are 20 pins between the 2 arrows.

 

[Redman]

View attachment 63723
Okay, I'm feeling pretty good about there being exactly 20 pins between the arrows. Just want to make sure that the T 1-4 mark you mentioned is the mark that's located between the T and the F. This is the mark I'm referring to and, perhaps its not important if it isn't because there are 20 pins between the 2 arrows.

Yes, that T mark lined up with that pickup on the left (assuming picture not upsidedown).
AND arrow 1 pointing at top of head surface (cam cover surface).

And .... 2 and 3 arrow spaced at 20 pins (counting the pins at the arrows, not 20 pin in between).

 

[Redman]

After get tensioner back in (follow manual), then turn engine a few times (clockwize) and check the marks again.

 

[willie]

A couple more observations that are causing me mixed feelings. 1st some regret that I messed with the tensioner at all. 2nd the understanding that one never knows the mechanical history of a used bike that has a performance problem. and 3rd I'm confident that I have a good chance of fixing any particular problem that I cause or uncover. Now, that stated, I'll describe what I've found.
While slowly turning the engine over, clockwise, I noticed the slack in the cam chain between the sprockets would come and go. It would vary from tight as drum to extremely loose. So, I removed the tensioner, properly, and confirmed that the plunger is indeed moving before reinstalling it. After turning the engine over some more, I noticed the chain slack still comes and goes. This lead me to check the amount of spring tension on the knob. In other words, how much effort it takes to turn the knob. Well, there is next to none. So little, in fact, that the knob almost remains were its at when released.
This lead me to take another look at BWringer's tensioner tutorial in which he states, " think of the tensioner as a mechanical one-way valve -- it can tighten the cam chain if needed, but it won't allow it to loosen. The pushrod can come out, but it can't go back in (unless you turn the knob.)"
In my opinion, the tensioner plunger is going in and out vs going out (ie taking up the tension) and staying out. If so, it's because the spring loaded knob doesn't have enough tension to prevent the plunger from staying out (ie pushing against the chain).
I was hoping that the tutorial stated how many turns of tension there should be on the knob but it doesn't. Instead, it says to count the number of turns during disassembly and preload it the same amount of turns during reassembly.
So, I'd like opinions and suggestions as to how I should proceed. In my opinion, I think I should add another turn to the spring and see what happens. Again, what are your thoughts?