'83 1100E very hard starting, starter motor switching directions

[KiwiAlfa156]

what's a normal amperage draw for a starter motor? I've tried to find the manufacturer design spec for the OEM motor but haven't had much luck.

Current draw (amperage) is proportional to load, and the load is whatever is required to overcome internal friction and compression and crank the engine at a fast enough to start. So current draw isn't fixed, with cold starting requiring more current than a warm engine with thinner oil and significantly less windage and Hence the CCA measurement of batteries.

If I was confronted with what you are describing, my methodology would be as follows.

1. I'd check that the battery was in fact in good condition. A dud battery can still give you a no load reading of 12.5V off the charger, but have no capacity to supply that voltage at a high current draw like that required to start a cold engine. I'd measure the battery voltage across the battery terminals before, during and after cranking, to determine voltage drop and recovery. If it goes below around 10V after 30 sec, or recovers to less than 12V, I'd be getting a new battery. Especially if it starts to smelling like eggs (which my last battery did). I see you've used an auxiliary battery so your problem may be elsewhere, but I'd still do this test to eliminate the battery as one of the causes (your problem might be multi-causal).
2. I'd measure the resistance of all the wiring from the positive pole of the battery to the starter motor. So the thick red cable to the starter relay. The lead from the relay to the starter motor. Then I'd measure the resistance from the crankcase to the negative pole of the battery. There is an earth strap that runs from the engine back to the frame and from the frame back to the battery. A bad earth here would effect both the starter and the plugs as both use the engine as a return to the -ve pole of the battery. Good connections at the battery are vital.
3. I would also check the resistance between the mounting strap of the starter relay and the -ve pole of the battery. The starter button supplies 12V to the single small gauge wire into the starter relay, through a coil and back to earth through the mounting strap -its a solenoid. A bad earth between the strap and earth, can and does cause slow cranking/no cranking (just a click) and hard starting. This because the coil isn't pulling the relay closed with enough pressure to make a good connection. This is a common problem. I cleaned a starter motor 3 times without improvement before I discovered this little problem.
4. If the starter circuit is good and the earths are sweet, I'd pull the starter, disassemble, clean and return. Check the brushes for wear, clean the commutator with the appropriate grit wet and dry. And check that the field magnets are still attached to the inside of the starter housing. These puppies are 40+ years old and they are glued in. I've had two starters where a magnet has come loose, in one case part of it was abraded by the spinning armature and is was a nightmare getting all the magnet filings that had been flung though out the motor out. If you do find a loose one, use a high temperature epoxy glue.
5. You might CAREFULLY test the starter motor with 12V MOMENTARILY applied between the +ve pole on the motor and the casing. But beware, without load these things spin up quick with quite a bit of torque reaction.
6. All the above should mean your starter is doing what it should be doing and the issue isn't the starter circuit.
7. I'd check that the the correct leads were on the correct plugs. LH coil to 1 and 4, RH coil to 2 and 3. And just as importantly that the coil primary wires are also in the correct orientation. The signal generator sends a AC current that blips when it changes phase to the Ignitor 'black box' which is slight smarter than a pair of dumb relays, in as much as it can fire each relay independently and thus each coil 180? apart and know which one to fire. Here's the wiring diagram to explain
8. I'd check the ATU which governs the spark timing advance was operating smoothly, and confirm that TDC was occurring when the "T" mark on the ATU was aligned with pointer line. You can do this roughly with a rod inserted in the plug hole and turning the crank until it reaches maximum height to determine whether its , or use a dial gauge.
9. If this is all good and it still would start I'd check compression and pull the cam cover and confirm that the cam timing was correct. the arrows on the cam sprockets where pointing in the correct orientation.
10. If it still wasn't starting at this point I'd probably start drinking.

 

[eldevigo]

Hi, It's me, I'm back. I got bogged down with house maintenance projects for a few months, but I've been chipping away at the things listed in y'all's responses as well.

Since I last posted, I've done a fair amount of work to the bike, including some work on the clutch basket, replacing the coils and spark plug boots, and adjusting the throttle and clutch cable.

Here's what I've checked and learned, in response to KiwiAlfa's post (thanks for the step-by-step!) :

1. the battery charges up to about 12.7v on a tender, but runs down to about 10v while cranking. It pops back up to about where it started when I let the starter switch go (minus a couple points if i laid it on for a while, a full charge has only ever given me about 20-30 seconds of cranking with this bike).

2,3. I measured the resistance of the starter motor circuit point-by-point from the battery thru the starter relay to the motor, and the several grounds mentioned above. Everything seemed pretty nominal, everything was below 1 ohm.

4. I had previously disassembled the starter motor and given it a quick inspection and rub-down, no sign of loose magnets or fused windings or anything. I didn't do it a second time after the recommendation but I also don't have any reason to think there's a problem with the starter motor. Cranking this bike has never seemed like an issue, it's lively and consistent when I hit the starter switch.

5. I did not care to fool with spinning up an un-bolted starter motor, I'm quite confident that while installed that it's capable of spinning the crankshaft.

6. There is an issue with something in the starter switch circuit, some times from one push to another the circuit seems to short out and the switch stops responding. I believe this is likely an issue in my side stand switch, which is confirmed broken, but I need a jumper to bypass it and i haven't made one yet. This short is intermittent though, and all my other observations about the issues with this bike are based on the times where the starter switch is working correctly. Usually when the circuit shorts out it will stay dead until I jiggle the side stand switch for a while, and when it starts working again it usually stays that way for a while.

7. I checked and re-checked the leads to the plugs as you suggested. I also replaced the starter coils, as I was suspicious of the OEM ones on the bike, but the replacements seem to behave about the same. I re-checked the lead placements after replacing the coils - the right-hand coil has shorter leads going to cylinders 2 and 3, left-hand coil has longer leads going to cylinders 1 and 4, just as with the OEM units.

8,9: I pulled the valve cover and confirmed that the timing was correct per the instructions in the service manual, the timing alignment appears to be perfectly in line with the factory spec.

10. I tried drinking, but this didn't help either unfortunately

 

[eldevigo]

The bike is still refusing to turn over, no change in that department. Here's where I'm at currently:

1. Aside from the intermittent issue with the starter switch circuit shorting out, there appears to be nothing wrong with the ignition or starter electrical systems. I've checked continuity and confirmed expected voltage for every part I can think of in these systems, replaced everything in the ignition circuit except for the battery (new ignition bypass relay circuit, new coils, new spark plugs and boots). I've visually confirmed spark on each of the 4 plugs.

2. I've confirmed timing and compression is fine as per the service manual, and I've replaced the carb boots and pod filters so I'm not sure what could be going wrong with the air supply. I did find just today that the throttle cable appeared to be way out of adjustment and it had been holding the throttle position half-open even at rest position, which is obviously a problem, but I loosened it up and confirmed visually that the throttle body closes fully with the throttle released, and that hasn't solved the problem either.

3. I have some doubts about the health of my battery, and I'm planning to replace it soon, but it doesn't seem to be in desperate disrepair and I have run the bike with other batteries jumped on so I'm a little doubtful about this being the problem.

So I'm feeling like I've pretty well ruled out air, compression, and spark as the possible root cause. I've confirmed timing and valve adjustment. That brings me back to fuel. I'm feeling a bit at a loss about this, as I've already completely torn down and cleaned the carb rack, and my mechanic did after me as well.
I'm not sure how to go about trying to chase down a problem in the carbs. My first thought is that I should do a little more thorough job cleaning the idle circuit, as the bike has fairly consistently seemed to run alright once the engine gets started and I didn't do a super thorough job of this when I did my tear-down (I didn't have a guitar string of the correct size to thread through the fuel passage to ream it out).
I've also read about people pulling a spark plug after letting the enigne crank to see if the tip is wet with un-burned fuel. I've tried this, and my plugs usually look pretty try on the tip. Is this a consistent clue? Does this mean for sure I have a fuel delivery problem?

 

[rphillips]

Just my opinion, I've not read back through the whole thread again, but I don't remember you say'in if you've tried jumper cables or a jump box. It'd be a real pain if you had orig. air box, but with pods it should be pretty easy. To me your batt numbers shouldn't drop to 10 when you start cranking, that just don't sound right.. If it does right with jump box or jumper cables, (be sure you get a good connection as the little posts on the bike batt. can be hard to clamp to) you know the batt. is the culprit.

 

[eldevigo]

I have tried a jump box, nothing doing.
I also had a big 12v deep cycle marine battery i jumpered to the battery to work on it, which kept it cranking for extended periods of testing but didn't make the bike any more likely to fire up.
I have found fairly consistently that the bike will start up alright when jumped to a revving automobile, which I think indicates that whatever's going on with it is overcome when it's getting like 14v in at the battery, but I don't think that's what one would call a normal operating condition.

 

[gs58]

Have you checked the filter on your fuel tap, or that if the fuel tap is flowing?

 

[eldevigo]

I have, the only filter I know of on this bike is a transparent in-line filter the PO installed. It looks clean, nothing visible trapped in there. I have also confirmed there is gas flowing into the float bowls by draining them, cranking the battery, and draining them again.

 

[eldevigo]

I currently have the carbs off the bike again, I have a lingering qualm in my head about whether the idle circuits got cleaned thoroughly so I'm planning to run a guitar wire through them to ream them out and be sure, I just need to go get a string small enough to fit... My plan at this point is to give the carbs one more go-through as carefully as I can, especially checking to try to make sure the idle circuit is tuned and all the set screws and cable tensions are adjusted reasonably. If that doesn't make a difference, I'm going to replace my battery because I can't convince myself that I know for absolutely certain that it isn't the problem. If that doesn't do it, I'm going to button this beast back up and just garage it until I can scrape up the money to send it back to the mechanic. I hope the guy is still in business, I've only found one mechanic in town that will work on Japanese bikes this old.

 

[eldevigo]

Getting back into the carbs is reminding me of something I was meaning to ask about. The service manual and the carb cleaning guide document I followed both make reference to a pilot air jet that's threaded into a passage molded into the air intake funnel on the filter side of the throttle body.

There is no removable pilot jet in any of my carbs. It looks like there's some kind of brass lining down inside but it seems permanently fixed with no clear way to remove it. It looks like there aren't any threads in the passage where one might go, and my carb bodies have four molded passages around the air intake where most of the documents I've seen show only two. My guess is this is normal for these carbs and it's just a minor variation between model years or so, can anyone confirm whether this is the case or whether there's a jet missing here?

Attaching a photo of the air intake to illustrate what I'm talking about. All four carbs look identical to the one shown.

 

[eldevigo]

Oh lordy I got it to start up! 18 months in the making, what a feeling haha

After all this work and guessing it seems like I just didn't understand how the throttle stop screw worked and I had it closed too tight so it was choking off one of the pilot feeder passages.

I'm almost afraid to call it fixed because after I got it fired up and ran it for a minute and then shut it off, the intermittent short in the starter circuit kicked in so I didn't get a second chance to try it. But it was pretty clearly responding to the throttle stop screw adjustment, which is greatly encouraging!

edit: went back this evening and the short had gone away again, was able to confirm it starts consistently now. next priorities in some order: bring the idle RPM down from the 3k it's at currently, and figure out what's causing this intermittent starter circuit short.

 

[rphillips]

I can feel your feelin's, Great to hear, Congrats. Now, that should make you even more enthusiastic about getting that starter stuff worked out.

 

[eldevigo]

Yes absolutely, that'll probably be a tomorrow project!