A few questions...

[JCSkokos]

I just received an '81 GS650G from a friend free of charge, basically a "if you can fix it you can have it" deal.
It was last registered in '97 and he says that he had it running last year but the alternator needs replacing. All of the screws for the cover are frozen in the case. I need to either get at least one out to compare to new ones, or if someone has the specs for the screws that would be awesome. (length, tread, width). I also need tips on getting them all out since I may have stripped one or two trying a few methods I found on google.

next I somehow got it running for a few minutes last week, and it idled pretty good except for a weird ticking noise coming from the cam shaft area(I heard this was normal for under 1500RPM) and a small amount of oil spraying from right under where the tach goes into the engine (looks like an easy fix) but when I shut it off and looked at the oil again, it had the pudding-like water mixed in oil. Would it be possible for water to get in there from sitting for so long, also could it have damaged anything in the engine from me running it?

Last question for now; now it will not start at all unless I spray some starting fluid/brake-clean into the airbox. When I first hit [start] it sounds like it wants to catch, but fails and just spins then engine. The spark plugs look fine and it definitely has compression. Could this be a carb issue, and what do I adjust to fix it?


TL-DR, I got a old broken GS and need to fix the alternator, change the contaminated oil, and figure out why its not starting.

 

[Guest]

Welcome to the forum. Nice friend you have there, he gave you one of the most reliable bikes ever made. You will find every answer you are looking for in the 'search' function. Have a good look there before you start on those screws again. Just my opinion but I wouldn't try starting the bike again until you do some basic work on it. You need to pull the carbs off and rebuild them, not as daunting as it sounds. You will find all the tutorials on how to do this on 'Basscliffs' site (he'll be along soon with his 'Mega welcome'). There's no way around rebuilding the carbs, it's essential to the performance of the bike and after sitting for that long every o-ring in them will be crap. Pull off the oil cap and see what it smells like in there, could be fuel in there. Regardless, dump that oil and do a fresh filter and oil change. There is tons of advice on here about current to the plugs and coils, read through those and get your voltmeter out. These bike are fairly easy to work on once you get in there and there is enough knowledge on here to build it up from the ground twice. Now lets see some pics.

 

[Steve]

OK, a few answers:

I just received an '81 GS650G from a friend free of charge, basically a "if you can fix it you can have it" deal.

Great. :clap:

he says that he had it running last year but the alternator needs replacing.

Although there are some tests you can do on a non-running bike, you will have to get it running to verify.

All of the screws for the cover are frozen in the case. I need to either get at least one out to compare to new ones, or if someone has the specs for the screws that would be awesome. (length, tread, width). I also need tips on getting them all out since I may have stripped one or two trying a few methods I found on google.

Skip the Google search. If you want info on a GS bike, RIGHT HERE is where you need to search.

First thing you need is a HAND-HELD impact driver. (<-- click the link) Use that on any bolt you need to remove. If you have already mangled the Phillips (actually JIS) head, use a cut-off wheel in a rotary tool to cut a straight slot in what's left of the head, then use a straight bit in the impact driver to remove the bolt. Worst-possible scenario: cut the head off the bolt, pull the cover, then use vise-grips on the shanks of the bolts. You should also know that penetrating oil is your friend. (WD-40 is not penetrating oil.)

next I somehow got it running for a few minutes last week, and it idled pretty good except for a weird ticking noise coming from the cam shaft area(I heard this was normal for under 1500RPM) and a small amount of oil spraying from right under where the tach goes into the engine (looks like an easy fix) but when I shut it off and looked at the oil again, it had the pudding-like water mixed in oil. Would it be possible for water to get in there from sitting for so long, also could it have damaged anything in the engine from me running it?

There are seals to fix the tach cable leak, so that's not much of a problem.

The noise could be about anything. These engines are noisy by nature. Since you don't know the condition, it could simply be something that's mis-adjusted.

I would be more surprised if you didn't find water in the oil. Probably no damage if you didn't go for a ride to load the engine, but I would recommend changing it before working on the bike. Use cheap oil to flush it out, then put the good stuff in when you are ready to ride.

Last question for now; now it will not start at all unless I spray some starting fluid/brake-clean into the airbox. When I first hit [start] it sounds like it wants to catch, but fails and just spins then engine. The spark plugs look fine and it definitely has compression. Could this be a carb issue, and what do I adjust to fix it?

First thing to do is THROW THE STARTING FLUID AWAY AND DO NOT USE BRAKE CLEANER TO START AN ENGINE.

Yes, carbs can definitely be a problem. They need to be completely cleaned and have new o-rings installed.

The next likely issue for a non-starting engine is valve adjustment. Since you have no idea when it was done last, you need to do it anyway. Just grab your manual, then get the tutorials on BassCliff's site, study for a while, then start swinging some wrenches. I would also suggest reading the end of my sig and taking advantage of the spreadsheet I have to offer. It helps you determine what shims you will need to adjust your valves and also gives you a service log so you can keep track of everything else you do to your bike.

TL-DR, I got a old broken GS and need to fix the alternator, change the contaminated oil, and figure out why its not starting.

Sorry, but there are a LOT of us on the forum that use complete words in American English. What is the meaning of "TL-DR"? :-k

One last thing:

.

 

[Ranger]

Welcome.

Pictures of everything you are talking about will help greatly.

Ticking can be also a broken or cracked header at the head, which gets real annoying (mine currently is in this situation).

Oil leaking is just that, an oil leak. Oil belongs inside the engine, not on it. Maybe it is an easy fix (gasket, not tightened, etc).

Cover--- Valve cover, clutch cover... ?

Enough for now. Where are you located? Put your info in your signature like mine and everyone elses, helps with reference. Also your location in your profile.

BassCliff might be around soon, being its really nice out down here today I wouldn't be surprised if he's riding right now. So we can help you the best we can. Til then check this out http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/ and respond with what you can on here.

@@ Steve, I felt like I was the smart one til you replied while I was typing this
Starting fluid makes good use for starting fire's so keep it! :|

 

[JCSkokos]

There are seals to fix the tach cable leak, so that's not much of a problem.

its not the tach cable, but just to the side of it:

the tip of the knife

The noise could be about anything. These engines are noisy by nature. Since you don't know the condition, it could simply be something that's mis-adjusted.

I would be more surprised if you didn't find water in the oil. Probably no damage if you didn't go for a ride to load the engine, but I would recommend changing it before working on the bike. Use cheap oil to flush it out, then put the good stuff in when you are ready to ride.

well that's kinda good to hear. I have t parked in my back yard at the moment until I am ready to have it running.
and by cheap oil, would regular motor oil work, or should I use actual motorcycle oil?

First thing to do is THROW THE STARTING FLUID AWAY AND DO NOT USE BRAKE CLEANER TO START AN ENGINE.

Yes, carbs can definitely be a problem. They need to be completely cleaned and have new o-rings installed.

The next likely issue for a non-starting engine is valve adjustment. Since you have no idea when it was done last, you need to do it anyway. Just grab your manual, then get the tutorials on BassCliff's site, study for a while, then start swinging some wrenches. I would also suggest reading the end of my sig and taking advantage of the spreadsheet I have to offer. It helps you determine what shims you will need to adjust your valves and also gives you a service log so you can keep track of everything else you do to your bike.

Is starting fluid that bad? I only tried the Brake-clean because some "backyard mechanic" i was helping used it to help start an old chevy when he ran out of starting fluid.
I also have taken apart the carbs and cleaned them, but I didnt replace any o-rings. I also didnt fully take them apart, just enough to get to all the jets, but from the look of it that wasnt enough.

Sorry, but there are a LOT of us on the forum that use complete words in American English. What is the meaning of "TL-DR"? :-k

One last thing:

.

Sorry, its something I got off another forum meaning "too long-didnt read" basically for the people too lazy to read the whole post.

Oil leaking is just that, an oil leak. Oil belongs inside the engine, not on it. Maybe it is an easy fix (gasket, not tightened, etc)./QUOTE]
I am pretty sure its just the gasket

Cover--- Valve cover, clutch cover... ?

the alternator cover.

Starting fluid makes good use for starting fire's so keep it! :|

and it works wonders for a stubborn lawn mower and old chevys.


Thanks guys for the quick answers. Like you guessed, I am new to this site and am still figuring things out, it even took me a while to figure out how to get the pictures in there(even if they are pretty huge). Its a lot more organized than most other forums I have been on.

 

[Ranger]

The tip of the knife seems to be pointed at the forward middle bolt of the valve cover. You're going to pull it off anyways and adjust those valves before you ride/ start your bike. When you do replace the gasket, I never did and put the ultra copper gasket maker on it and torqued to specs. Don't do like me.

When you drain the oil as you should anyways, replace the clutch cover gasket (check the fiber plates and steel plates and measure for wear) saves you in the long run. Pull all covers actually and replace the gaskets.

I've never seen screws for covers but it might be in your best interest to change it to something with a hex slotted head.

Also with your headers, I would pull the bolts and put an anti seize on them so you don't have problems down the road if you wanted to change the exhaust.

All are simple fixes and don't cost much money, its half assing or missing steps that take the most time and money.

As far as cleaning the carbs, unless you stripped them and put them in a carb dip for a few hours you didn't clean them. Carb cleaner is yet again half assed unless you cleaned them and it sat for a few days you to sprayed carb cleaner down the throats.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Also with your headers, I would pull the bolts and put an anti seize on them so you don't have problems down the road if you wanted to change the exhaust.

Better yet, replace them with studs and antiseize and you'll have even fewer problems. Plus, Z1 sells a complete kit that you can buy to replace all of the JIS screws with allen heads. But first, get yourself an impact driver to get those out. You'll need a #3 phillips head bit.

As far as cleaning the carbs, unless you stripped them and put them in a carb dip for a few hours you didn't clean them. Carb cleaner is yet again half assed unless you cleaned them and it sat for a few days you to sprayed carb cleaner down the throats.

This actually needs to read 24 hours for EACH carb. If you don't you truly will not get everything out. Go look over Basscliff's site for tutorials that you can use to help yourself.

Welcome and good luck.

 

[Guest]

Welcome to the board. If you need some parts for it I have a parts bike sitting in my driveway.

 

[Steve]

its not the tach cable, but just to the side of it:

The good news is that your tach drive is in the valve cover, and that leak is in the valve cover gasket. As mentioned, you will be changing that gasket when you adjust your valves, so no problem. Do NOT use any gasket sealer when you install your new gasket. Spray both sides of your new gasket with WD-40 and you will not have to scrape it ever again.

and by cheap oil, would regular motor oil work, or should I use actual motorcycle oil?

Just good old regular car oil, for now. Go to Auto Zone, get their house brand, Wal-Mart for Super Tech, whatever, you just need some fresh 10w-40 in there. By the time you get it up and running, you will have had plenty of time to browse through all the thousands of pages that have been dedicated to "which is the best oil to use?". In a nutshell, just about any quality oil will work, as long as you change it regularly. I also feel it is best to stick with one brand, as the additives are not necessarily compatible from one brand to another. Many of us use oil formulated for diesel engines, as they have more of the additives that used to be in the oil, but have been mandated out of car oils because they might contaminate the catalytic convertors. Whatever you use, look on the back label, make sure it does NOT say "Energy Conserving". Most of those oils only go to 30w and our bikes call for 10w-40, so that should not be a problem.

Is starting fluid that bad? I only tried the Brake-clean because some "backyard mechanic" i was helping used it to help start an old chevy when he ran out of starting fluid.

Used properly, starting fluid is a wonderful product. However, it is so easy to go so wrong with it, I hesitate to even have it in the garage. If it "needs" starting fluid to get it going, you have other problems that need to be fixed. A properly-tuned and adjusted bike will start easily in 20-degree weather with no starting fluid.

I also have taken apart the carbs and cleaned them, but I didnt replace any o-rings. I also didnt fully take them apart, just enough to get to all the jets, but from the look of it that wasnt enough.

NO SHORTCUTS HERE. Order an o-ring kit from cycleorings.com. The owner there, Robert Barr, is a member of GSR. While you are there, also get the o-rings for the intake tubes and the stainless bolts that hold them on. Total cost will be less than $25.

Get a can of Berryman's Carb Dip Cleaner. It's a one-gallon size can, but has about 3 quarts of fluid in it (to give you room to dip stuff), it will cost about $20 at Auto Zone. Follow the guides you will find at BassCliff's site. Completely strip each carb down to a bare body (leave the throttle butterfly in there), be sure to also get the idle mixture adjustment screw out of there. Keep the parts for each carb together. Dip all the brass jets, the float bowl and the carb body for 24 hours. Remove the parts, rinse them in hot water (I use the kitchen sink, Mrs. Steve is very forgiving, as long as I clean it up), blow them dry, then use a strand of copper wire to poke through all the holes in the jets. Put on your safety glasses, use carb cleaner spray to blow through all the passages in the carb body and float bowl, then blow air through them again. Dip the next carb. Yes, it takes almost a week by the time you get it done, but you will only have to do it once and will not have to do it again for another 10 years or so, if you ride the bike regularly.

Sorry, its something I got off another forum meaning "too long-didnt read" basically for the people too lazy to read the whole post.

The 'fun' part of that is that you say it was too long after you made the long post. You don't see that until you have already 'wasted' the time to read the long version.

You will also learn that some of us are simply grumpy old farts who do not use "texting" language. There is the occasional "LOL" and whatnot, but most of the more-obscure things like "TL-DR" will just make us scratch our heads. If I have to ask for a translation of an abbreviation, I am likely to ignore the rest of your post and move on, even though I could have given you a good answer.

Thanks guys for the quick answers. Like you guessed, I am new to this site and am still figuring things out, it even took me a while to figure out how to get the pictures in there(even if they are pretty huge).

Nothing wrong with the size of the pictures, just make sure you hit the ENTER key twice before pasting the link for the next picture. It will prevent two pictures from stacking sideways, as above (you can go edit that, if you wish), and will give a one-line white space as a border between them. You can see that space at the top of my post, between the oil leak pictures.

By the way, there are several GSers out your way, many of them are willing and able to help, now that they know where you are. They also get together for rides, so watch for their posting in the Meetingplace forum.

.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi Mr. JCSkokos,


As you can see, you'll find lots of GS lovin' here. You'll find some more on my little website. Go grab yourself a heapin' helpin'.

I just stopped by to welcome you to the forum in my own, special way.

If there's anything you'd like to know about the Suzuki GS model bikes, and most others actually, you've come to the right place. There's a lot of knowledge and experience here in the community. Come on in and let me say "HOoooowwwDY!"....

Here is your very own magical, mystical, mythical, mind-expanding "mega-welcome". Please take notice of the "Top 10 Common Issues", the Carb Rebuild Series, and the Stator Papers. Now let me roll out the welcome mat for you...

Please click here for your mega-welcome, chock full of tips, suggestions, links to vendors, and other information. Then feel free to visit my little BikeCliff website where I've been collecting the wisdom of this generous community. Don't forget, we like pictures! Not you, your bike!

Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[JCSkokos]

@ Ranger- I was actually planning on replacing all of the screws with 8mm or 10mm hex bolts, and I dont really see myself modifying the exhaust too much, but I will put some anti-seize on the bolts.

@ cowboyup3371- is there any advantage to using studs over bolts?

@ kparkfan- If you have an extra seat cover, or an un-rusted gas tank... lol

@ Steve- ok, so it is called the valve cover. Would the Permatex Black gasket maker work for this? If not what sites have gaskets for these bikes? Bert's Mega Mall is pretty expensive.
I like using Lucas Oil in my engines and it is a little expensive and that is why I was nervous about just draining and filling as soon as I got the bike. just so I get it straight, as long as I dont go riding regular ol' chevron brand oil will work to flush it?
I will have to replace the bolts for the intake tubes?
I also fixed the picture spacing thing and sent you an email for the excel sheets.

@ BassCliff- I checked out the Stator Papers, and that is the first thing I tested when I got it started with the bike slowly dropping battery voltage(start:12.7V- after about an hour:12.0V or so. I was excited at the time and didn't write down the actual numbers). basically no gain and very little drain. I plan on using your carb rebuild section once I clear off some desk space.
also I really like the red part of your signature.


Thank you all for the answers again! I will try to put up more pics when I have time.

 

[Steve]

@ Steve- ok, so it is called the valve cover. Would the Permatex Black gasket maker work for this? If not what sites have gaskets for these bikes? Bert's Mega Mall is pretty expensive.
I like using Lucas Oil in my engines and it is a little expensive and that is why I was nervous about just draining and filling as soon as I got the bike. just so I get it straight, as long as I dont go riding regular ol' chevron brand oil will work to flush it?
I will have to replace the bolts for the intake tubes?
I also fixed the picture spacing thing... lol

As I mentioned, please do not use any gasket maker or sealer there, unless you want to scrape it off every time you adjust the valves.
And, yes, you will be doing that every 3-4000 miles, according to the manual.

Did you get BassCliff's "Welcome Wagon" package? He has a list of vendors there, along with commentaries on some of them. I will include my own list of vendors, too.

Ahh, Bert's. As I remember, the San Gabriel Canyon Road is right around the corner. :dancing:
(That means that BassCliff is just around the corner, too.)

Yeah, any oil will work for tuning it up. It will even do for short shake-down rides, but you appear to know the difference in oils (hopefully Lucas oil works better than their smoke containers.

You will need to remove the intake tubes to change the o-rings between them and the cylinder head. Most of us agree that the hardness of the existing screws is only half a step harder than aged Cheddar cheese, so you will likely destroy more than one in the process of removal. Please use a good-fitting #3 bit, preferrably in an impact driver to remove the screws. Replacement stainless Allen-head screws from cycleorings.com are only a few bucks, so order them along with the o-rings.

My list of vendors. Read commentaries about some of them on BassCliff's site.
Not all of them carry all items, but each has its own redeeming qualities, or it wouldn't be on my list.


Alpha Sports
Apex Sports
Babbittsonline
Bike Bandit
BoulevardSuzuki
Carolina Cycle
Cycle Parts Nation
CYCLE-RE-CYCLE
Full throttle
G&S Suzuki
Motogrid
MR Cycles
PartShark
Partsnmore
Ron Ayers
Z1 Enterprises

.

 

[JCSkokos]

Alright, I am going to be going through those sites for the next few days between classes.

With the gasket tip, I didnt think about it like that. good point.

San Gabriel Canyon? Is that Azusa Canyon? I know my mom used to ride her old Yamaha up there.

So far Lucas Oil has been good to me and its what we use almost religiously at the Citrus College auto program.

Finally, I think those have already been replaced because earlier when I was checking which bolts I have to go buy, those were 12mm hex head bolts in there. I hear a lot of praise from many bike fans about the allen-head bolts, is there an advantage to them or is it a looks thing?

 

[Steve]

San Gabriel Canyon? Is that Azusa Canyon? I know my mom used to ride her old Yamaha up there.

Finally, I think those have already been replaced because earlier when I was checking which bolts I have to go buy, those were 12mm hex head bolts in there. I hear a lot of praise from many bike fans about the allen-head bolts, is there an advantage to them or is it a looks thing?

Yes, Azusa Avenue splits just north of Foothill Freeway. It's Azusa going north and SG going south. They merge again just north of Sierra Madre Avenue, and San Gabriel Canyon Road continues up the "hill". We used to ride up there to Angeles Crest Highway, as long as a slide had not closed it.

If you have bolts holding the intake boots that have 12mm heads, someone might have drilled out the holes and re-tapped them.

I think the bolt threads are 6mm diameter, most of them only use a 10mm wrench. :-k
Most bolts that use a 12mm wrench are 8mm.

.

 

[bwringer]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but heated or burning brake cleaner can kill you dead with poison gas. Really.

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

So, uh, don't use that any more for starting.


And thanks for using Lucas' fine oils and helping to support my home team...

 

[cowboyup3371]

@ cowboyup3371- is there any advantage to using studs over bolts?

Based on what I have seen so far from other posts (only because I haven't taken mine back off after putting them on) it will be easier to not mess up the threads when trying to take them off and put them back on. The stud itself stays in place while all you need to do is take off the nut holding the pipes. Just make sure you use the copper anti-seize that you can buy in a small bottle.

 

[JCSkokos]

Based on what I have seen so far from other posts (only because I haven't taken mine back off after putting them on) it will be easier to not mess up the threads when trying to take them off and put them back on. The stud itself stays in place while all you need to do is take off the nut holding the pipes. Just make sure you use the copper anti-seize that you can buy in a small bottle.

put the anti seize on the end that goes into the engine or the side that the nut goes on? I have seen people use studs before, but I have stuck with bolts simply because I am more comfortable with using them.

If you have bolts holding the intake boots that have 12mm heads, someone might have drilled out the holes and re-tapped them.

they may be 10s and I was mistaken. I will check it out tonight when I get home from school. hopefully they weren't re-tapped. :/

 

[cowboyup3371]

Where the nuts go.

 

[Steve]

put the anti seize on the end that goes into the engine or the side that the nut goes on? I have seen people use studs before, but I have stuck with bolts simply because I am more comfortable with using them.

A couple of observations on that:
I have not done the stud modification to any of my bikes (yet), but have thought about it a bit. A lot of the problem is the bolts going in and out of the head in the process of removing and re-installing the exhaust pipe will wear away at the aluminum and increase the chances of cross-threading every time you do this. Installing studs will virtually eliminate the wear in the head. If a stud or a nut strips out, replace it with no fanfare.

Who needs to remove the exhaust system that often? Well, that would be the guys with the "performance" exhaust systems that require removal to change the oil. OK, they would benefit from studs, but if they used bolts, they would not be in there long enough to corrode in place, so does it really matter?

What about the rest of us with stock pipes or headers that don't require exhaust removal? If you use bolts, they are likely to be in there for a LONG time, so be sure to use some anti-seize on them. And, the 'advantage' of using studs (less wear on the threads in the head' won't mean anything because you are not bothering them.

Just some food for thought.

.

 

[Ranger]

Depending on where you are in LA I might be able to give you a hand sometime this week and early next week.