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Any spoked wheel experts in the crowd???

tkent02

tkent02

Forum LongTimer
Past Site Supporter
I have a question about my wheels. Alloy rim spoked wheels from a 1978 or so GS1000.

How tight is too tight on the spokes? I thought we used to try for a middle C note, but it's been a long time since I played with spoked wheels. When I set the spokes for a middle C tone some of the nipples almost spin by hand. I don't think they will stay tight, not sure.

If I screw then in until they seem tight enough to stay put it's a really high pitched "Ting"

I think it might be too tight and break the hub if I hit a bump or something.

Any ideas?
 
tkent02 said:
I have a question about my wheels. Alloy rim spoked wheels from a 1978 or so GS1000.

How tight is too tight on the spokes? I thought we used to try for a middle C note, but it's been a long time since I played with spoked wheels. When I set the spokes for a middle C tone some of the nipples almost spin by hand. I don't think they will stay tight, not sure.

If I screw then in until they seem tight enough to stay put it's a really high pitched "Ting"

I think it might be too tight and break the hub if I hit a bump or something.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Ideas? Take them to a wheel builder, that's one.
 
They'll all make a different note Tom. Just make sure that none make a dull thud (too loose) or a high ping with no resonance whatsoever (too tight). Something like the range of the notes on a cheap xylophone (that I bashed at infant school) is about right.

Edit: and if you have to overtighten to get the thing to run true start again.
 
I actually know the answer to this. :)
"middle C" ,...That's a good one. Good luck!
 
OK, I have them on there so the rims are straight, all close to the same tone. Not sure how far up your old Xylophone went. It is higher tone than all of the dirt bikes in the garage, and the other 550 with the spoked wheels. I check them all once in a while, the nipples seem to feel tight awhile making a much lower tone than the ones on these wheels.

Thanks.
 
tkent02 said:
OK, I have them on there so the rims are straight, all close to the same tone. Not sure how far up your old Xylophone went. It is higher tone than all of the dirt bikes in the garage, and the other 550 with the spoked wheels. I check them all once in a while, the nipples seem to feel tight awhile making a much lower tone than the ones on these wheels.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

as long as it doesn't "thunk" or make no tone you should be fine. give it a whack and check again.
 
tkent02 said:
Not sure how far up your old Xylophone went. It is higher tone than all of the dirt bikes in the garage, and the other 550 with the spoked wheels.
Click to expand...
How do the length of the spokes compare?

If the dirt bikes have larger wheels with longer spokes, they will sound a lower tone. Shorter spokes will ring higher with the same tension applied.

.
 
(I actually do "tune" them, but I have been tuning piannys for a long time.)

I go through them 2 or three times so I don't have to adjust them much by the third time around, I do one side, then the other, to load the tension equally. Before I tuned motorcyle spokes I tuned bicycle spokes, so that was good practice.

Of course, as you mentioned, you make sure the rims are straight. You can do it "by feel" like you would a torque
wrench. Then you pluck the spokes, just like tuning a harp with really thick strings.
 
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tkent02 said:
OK, then on the pianny, which note would you consider too tight?
Click to expand...

I use a tuning fork to "pitch" the first note (a440, whatever) on pianos, but on spokes I start plucking them to see which ones are the highest pitch, then average that. Obviously you don't want them too tight but, you don't want a "thud", either.

I haven't thought about checking the exact frequency of spokes, but it would be easy to do, since you can download free guitar tuning apps. On pianos, frequency of a string has to be within one one-hundreth of a semitone, on a spoke you don't have to get that exact!
 
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Steve said:
If the dirt bikes have larger wheels with longer spokes, they will sound a lower tone. Shorter spokes will ring higher with the same tension applied.

.
Click to expand...

Of course, that's what I was missing. These are also heavier spokes, so they will resonate at a lower tone for a given tension.
Thanks Steve!
 
gsgeezer said:
I use a tuning fork to get the pitch on pianos, but on spokes I start plucking them to see which ones are the highest pitch, then average that. Obviously you don't want them too tight but, you don't want a "thud", either.

I haven't thought about checking the pitch exactly but it would be easy to do, since you can download free guitar tuning apps. On pianos, frequency of a string has to be within one one-hundreth of a semitone, on a spoke you don't have to get that exact!
Click to expand...

I know it doesn't have to be exact, but I also know too tight will break things. I just don't knoe how tight is too tight.
 
tkent02 said:
I know it doesn't have to be exact, but I also know too tight will break things. I just don't knoe how tight is too tight.
Click to expand...
Like turning a wrench on a bolt, you will feel things start to get tight and then you will break one. You can practice on a bike, I remember breaking a spoke when I was a kid. I would mainly be worried about being too loose. Like I said, check ones that feel tight and listen to the pitch of those.

I think I acutally do every other one on one side, then do the other side, pluck and listen as you go then repeat. Don't try to change them all at once, go over it a few times.
 
After further ponderance, I think that middle C thing came from bicycles with 27" wheels.
 
gsgeezer said:
Cool, I didn't know.
That is 523.3 ccp, if I remember right?
Click to expand...

I guess sometimes?.

With a frequency around 261.6 Hz, middle C is designated C4 in scientific pitch notation because of the note's position as the fourth C key on a standard 88-key piano keyboard. (Another system known as scientific pitch assigned a frequency of 256 Hz to this note. While numerically convenient, it is not used by concert orchestras.) While other note-octave systems (including those used by some manufacturers of digital music keyboards) may refer to "Middle C" with a different designation, the C4 designation is the most commonly recognized in auditory science[citation needed], and in musical studies it is often used in place of the Helmholtz designation c'. In MIDI, it is note number 60.
While the expression "Middle C" is generally clear across instruments and clefs, some musicians tend to use the term to refer to the C note in the middle of their specific instrument's range. For example, C4 may be called "Low C" by someone playing a Western concert flute (which has a higher and narrower playing range than a piano), while C5 (523.251 Hz) would be "Middle C". This technically inaccurate practice has led some pedagogues to encourage standardizing on C4 as the definitive "Middle C" in instructional materials across all instruments.[1]
 
Strangely enough, Philly Orchestra won't even play with the piano unless it is tuned to 444 or higher. I have documents from the nineteenth century euro orchestras that vary quite a bit. Opera orchestras, like in Dresden, pushed the pitch higher and there has been no international pitch established since the pianny tuners decided on 440 in about 1917. Most harpsichords have transposing keyboards, since the pitch variation is from a392 to a440, which can break springs, if you don't use a different wire guage.
 
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