Billet clutch baskets are, well..... Fake?

[Guest]

Maybe it is forged from a billet?

 

[Paul.S]

Maybe it is forged from a billet?

Im pretty sure every cast/forged part starts off as a solid block of raw material aka billet. They then heat the block of material and turn it into a molten state to pour/inject it into a cast. Or in forging, it would be pressed/hammered. That is as far as I know.

 

[Guest]

Maybe it is forged from a billet?

Winner, winner. Most forgings are from billets.

 

[bwringer]

The word "billet" is a lot like the word "natural" -- people really like buying things with that word attached for some reason, but it has zero actual meaning.

However it was made, that looks like a very nice clutch basket. FWIW, the "rough" finish looks like it might be bead-blasted. Hard to tell from pictures.

 

[Dogma]

OK, that is definitely a cast piece, not machined from billet. The finish looks to me like a sand casting. However, billet usually just boils down to "expensive bling", and not necessarily better. I agree with Brian, it's become functionally meaningless marketing baloney.

It's not clear to me how the Falicon part is better than stock, unless it's a better alloy. More wear-resistant or something. Most likely better than a worn-out basket, anyway.

Comparing the Falicon and Hays pics, I'd go for the cast part. Those corner reliefs in the machined part leave some pretty thin walls and a narrower face for the plates to engage.

 

[JJ]

The word "billet" is a lot like the word "natural" -- people really like buying things with that word attached for some reason, but it has zero actual meaning.

However it was made, that looks like a very nice clutch basket. FWIW, the "rough" finish looks like it might be bead-blasted. Hard to tell from pictures.

"Billet" is usually used to describe a part machined from a forged block of material. It's stronger because the grain direction can be chosen to fit the stress.

I was thinking the same thing about it looking like it is bead-blasted. I didn't see any casting part lines.

 

[Nessism]

Blocks of material (billets) are not forged. Forging is a process that involves slamming the material in a high pressure forging hammer press. A billet is typically formed by a combination of casting and/or extrusion followed by (possibly) hot forming via rolling to create the desired shape.

 

[JJ]

Blocks of material (billets) are not forged. Forging is a process that involves slamming the material in a high pressure forging hammer press. A billet is typically formed by a combination of casting and/or extrusion followed by (possibly) hot forming via rolling to create the desired shape.

Wrong, Ed. I'm surprised that you aren't aware of the difference. A casting is much weaker than billet of the same material.

Here is a short article that will educate you as to cast vs billet.

http://info.cpm-industries.com/blog/bid/283266/Cast-vs-Billet

 

[Nessism]

Wrong, Ed. I'm surprised that you aren't aware of the difference. A casting is much weaker than billet of the same material.

Here is a short article that will educate you as to cast vs billet.

http://info.cpm-industries.com/blog/bid/283266/Cast-vs-Billet

Apparently you didn't read the article you linked. You might want to go back and do some reading.

 

[JJ]

Apparently you didn't read the article you linked. You might want to go back and do some reading.

Which part did YOU not grasp, Ed? I understood it just fine.

 

[Nessism]

Blocks of billet are not forged. I'm repeating myself but they are cast or extruded and then (possibly) roll formed. These blocks then can be machined into a useful part. The finished part grain structure will NOT possess the aligned grain of a forged part.

 

[GregT]

Looking at the pic posted, I'd say it's a pressure die casting. Given the surface finish which is way better than a sand casting I'd also pick that it's been properly done with a chilled former for the interior surfaces.
Given a choice between "as machined" billet basket from possibly a good quality 6000 series alloy and a good diecast one, I'd go for the diecasting.
Unless you're running a top fuel dragbike you're not going to need anything better than the good diecasting.

 

[bonanzadave]

Which part did YOU not grasp

This is how I read it....

Advantages of billet:

• Cost effective in low quantities
• High degree of precision
• Very short lead times
• Structurally the parts are stronger

I form and heat treat aluminum parts all day. 6061 and 2024. 2024 is a stronger metal but not as corrosive resistant as 6061. We have a HAAS Mill and I could actually mow a basket out if I had the program.....

 

[posplayr]

Which part did YOU not grasp, Ed? I understood it just fine.

I would guess he can not grasp how you can't even properly relate the reference your posted. Your article did not mention forging once.

This is not to suggest that the article is necessarily authoritative, just you have read much more into it.

 

[Nessism]

There are some nifty youtube videos showing engine blocks and heads being milled out of a huge block (billet) of aluminum. Very cool stuff. I suppose JJ is going to tell us that the block was "forged", even though it was about 3' square to begin with?

I'll take a forged part over a milled from billet part any day if strength and toughness is one of the critical needs. Aircraft landing gear parts are typically forged. The forging process aligns the material grain structure and typically adds toughness (ability to absorb impact forces without failing) as well as ductility (not brittle).

This discussion has gone off the farm now though. I agree with Greg T in his assessment that a quality cast clutch basket is more than strong enough for it's intended usage.

 

[bwringer]

We have one small photo of the part, but I'll just point out that the object in the photo could very well have been machined from <<whatever the hell you lot of nitpickers want to call a chunk of aluminum>> then bead blasted. Or it could have been forged or cast then blasted. And blasting can have some strength benefits as well, or allow the part to better retain an oil coating, allow the clutch plates to move a little easier, etc. No way to tell for sure from one small low-quality photo. Frankly, it would be hard to tell for sure how it was made with it sitting on front of you.

The main beef seemed to be that tool marks weren't visible. Well, bear in mind that tool marks are actually defects, but over time people have come to associate the regular tool marks from automated machining with costly custom parts.

That Hays basket has heavy tool marks, which some people like the look of, but if they're deep enough they could cause a problem because the plates might not be able to move smoothly, same as a worn and notched stock basket. I'd much rather have the smooth finish on the Falicon basket.

I'm also trying to figure out why the Hays basket is anodized black -- or is that some sort of hard coating?

 

[GS1150Pilot]

Is there any history of Falicon baskets blowing up?

 

[limeex2]

I need more popcorn and beer....

 

[sharpy]

I have billet washers. F.Y.I. lots of spare time and a lathe makes me do silly things

 

[gs1197]

Since no parting or casting lines are visible, my guess is the Falicon basket is forged and the blasted finish also leads me to believe it's been shot peened. Forging and shot peening (in most cases) usually mean a very durable part.
Clutch baskets aren't exactly precision/close tolerance pieces, a closed die forging can produce a part that needs very little finish machining.

Don't know much about Hays clutches, but MTC hard anodizes their slider baskets. Would assume Hays does the same thing.