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Bought 750e two days ago, now it won't start

  • Thread starter Thread starter dagreatgatsby
  • Start date Start date
Post the results of a quick test. You only need to remove the seat and left side cover to measure voltage at the solenoid and ground.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1272192#post1272192


Charging System QUICK TEST
Sometime people get a little confused in the details of doing the stator pages and sometimes they forget to check their battery. So just to help things along if someone is a bit confused and needs a sanity check.

These tests are NOT mandatory as long as you know you have a good battery and can follow your way through the stator pages. Otherwise it is just a nice real quick test.

NOTE THIS IS NOT TO REPLACE THE STATOR PAGES. IT IS JUST A QUICK FIRST SANITY TEST TO see the battery is good enough to proceed with the STATOR PAGES. The first part of the stator pages will actually measure how good your connections are and goes well beyond this QUICK check.

Quick Test Steps:

1.) key off................Normal 12.7 volts-12.9 volts

2.) key on (but not cranking with lights for 10 sec).....Normal 12.2-12.5 volts

3.) at idle (1500 rpm).....12.6volts - 13.2volts

4.) at 2500 rpm 13.5 -14.0 volts

5.) at 5000 rpm.....14.0 -15.0 volts

6.) key off.....slightly higher than measurements # 1 (12.8-13.0 v)
Click to expand...


Edit: I spoke to Alex, there was a blown fuse but it was on the aux power supply and not the main fuse so he doesnt think that is it.

He says when it runs it runs great, it is just doesnt fire up about 1/2 the time.

He is going to recheck with the quick test but if the bike cranks but does not fire that can not be a charging issue.

I still think based on the symptoms that the ignitor is intermittent and on the verge of failing for good.
 
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Quick test results aka rectifier test: 13.9 volts. From 12.7 at idle to 13.9 at 5,000 rpm. a little low but passable.

Signal generator test results: Approximately 315 ohms. Forgot the exact number but within spec, although a little low.

Stator/alternator test: 80-95 volts. passed with flying colors

Ignitor test: Did not see any sparks from the spark plugs. However, the engine has been painted so it may not be providing adequate grounding plus i didn't do the test in a dark room. So, I removed the ignitor unit and dissassembled it. I measured the resistance of the 2 resistors inside the ignitor unit and got a reading of 629 ohms and 619 ohms respectively. This seems okay.

So, my conclusion is that it is either a bad battery or the engine is not grounded properly. I think it may be the battery because it had a difficult time starting this morning after sitting all day yesterday, plus the battery has drained from 12.76 to 12.69 volts steadily today. I think it may be the engine grounding because the engine has been painted and the grounding wire is not getting good metal to metal contact.

The bike starts at my house in the garage. It doesn't start only at school in the out-door parking lot where it's cold.

Does anybody know what's going on here?
 
dagreatgatsby said:
Quick test results aka rectifier test: 13.9 volts. From 12.7 at idle to 13.9 at 5,000 rpm. a little low but passable.

Signal generator test results: Approximately 315 ohms. Forgot the exact number but within spec, although a little low.

Stator/alternator test: 80-95 volts. passed with flying colors

Ignitor test: Did not see any sparks from the spark plugs. However, the engine has been painted so it may not be providing adequate grounding plus i didn't do the test in a dark room. So, I removed the ignitor unit and dissassembled it. I measured the resistance of the 2 resistors inside the ignitor unit and got a reading of 629 ohms and 619 ohms respectively. This seems okay.

So, my conclusion is that it is either a bad battery or the engine is not grounded properly. I think it may be the battery because it had a difficult time starting this morning after sitting all day yesterday, plus the battery has drained from 12.76 to 12.69 volts steadily today. I think it may be the engine grounding because the engine has been painted and the grounding wire is not getting good metal to metal contact.

The bike starts at my house in the garage. It doesn't start only at school in the out-door parking lot where it's cold.

Does anybody know what's going on here?
Click to expand...


The voltage is a little low but that is probably because your battery is down (12.69V). The battery is drained because you have been cranking the bike alot and have not been running the bike. The charging systems don't charge that well to start with; it takes a while to get fully charged.

The engine is grounded, if it was not your engine would not turn over from cranking the starter. Yes it is painted but that is not preventing it from being grounded to the frame and battery.

No idea what kind of igniter test you are doing, I attached what the manual says. You apply a small voltage to the pickup inputs to the igniter as described.

I still think the igniter is intermittent, if you had the igniter off can you re flow the solder on the back of the PCB? That has a good chance of making it stable.

If not take your chances with an E-bay unit of buy a Dyna-S.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dyna-S-Elec...50-GS1000-GS1100-77-78-79-80-81-/380382026185
 
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Random starting makes me suspect a bad ignitor or maybe random power to ignitor. On my bike, I can bypass ignition and kill switch with a jumper wire from Aux fuse position to plug that feeds the ignitor. The orange/white wire in this plug is the plus 12 volts that came from coils (from kill switch, etc.) . If you look at wiring diagram and are comfortable bypassing stuff, next time it doesn't start, try a jumper wire to "feed" the orange /white wire at ignitor plug and see if it helps, but remember to turn off kill switch (no need to have power travel any further back). Please make sure that your wiring is similar to mine (81 650) by studying diagram!
 
After all the tests, talking to a motorcycle mechanic, and reading everybody's posts, I've come to the conclusion that the battery is bad. I've read that the no-load voltage on a battery should not be lower than 12.86 volts. Considering that mine was at 12.68 today, I went ahead and ordered a new one. I decided to spend the money and buy a lithium battery from Shorai. It's got better cranking power than a standard battery and it's only 2 pounds. I'll let you guys know if this fixes the problem.
 
dagreatgatsby said:
After all the tests, talking to a motorcycle mechanic, and reading everybody's posts, I've come to the conclusion that the battery is bad. I've read that the no-load voltage on a battery should not be lower than 12.86 volts. Considering that mine was at 12.68 today, I went ahead and ordered a new one. I decided to spend the money and buy a lithium battery from Shorai. It's got better cranking power than a standard battery and it's only 2 pounds. I'll let you guys know if this fixes the problem.
Click to expand...

good luck with that, although I will suggest that you are not doing very well (with your considered analysis) If you think you have a bad battery when it is a 12.68V under no load.
 
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see battery receipt attached; go ask the store for a refund if the battery is dead. I bought the battery Dec 15, 2011.
 
dagreatgatsby said ...." I've read that the no-load voltage on a battery should not be lower than 12.86 volts. Considering that mine was at 12.68 today, "

I don't know where you read this, but it's wrong. 12.6 volt is considered excellent for a battery in standby mode. Measure a few vehicle batteries after few hours of not being charged and see what you get. There's something else going on- if the battery couldn't crank, you could assume it was defective, but your bike is cranking, but randomly not starting. More cranking power is not a cure-all.
 
After sanding the paint off the ground point of the engine, the bike seemed to be working excellent. So, I took my chances again and decided to ride to school. On the way there, the bike just died when trying to get going from a standstill at a red light. After about 5 minutes, the bike started up again. But, about another quarter mile later, the revs wouldn't come up in 3rd gear. I shifted down to 2nd, but the revs still wouldn't come up. Then, the engine shut itself off.

I got stranded again. Called my brother to bring the truck to haul the bike back home. When he arrived, I decided to try to start the bike again, which it did. So, I rode the bike half way home before the engine died out again when trying to go from a standstill. The bike would not start again, so we hauled in it back home on the back of the pickup. Once at home, the bike started up again. I think it's the rectifier/stator/battery. I'm sick of this **** and replacing all three.

Jim, you said this bike was in perfectly running condition. Well, it's not. Can you help me pay for this repair?

tom203, here is the where i read that battery needs to be above 12.8 volts. It's from shorai battery's website:
VoltageVsCapacityLg.gif
 
If that bike has the stock igniter, open it up and look at the circuit board, they are known for bad solder joints , just look carefully at all the solder joints for one that looks to have corrosion,and resolder it. have run into this a few times with these. Plus where Suzuki decided the mount them they do get wet in the rain.
From what you posted there is nothing wrong with your charging system.
 
hjfisk said:
If that bike has the stock igniter, open it up and look at the circuit board, they are known for bad solder joints , just look carefully at all the solder joints for one that looks to have corrosion,and resolder it. have run into this a few times with these. Plus where Suzuki decided the mount them they do get wet in the rain.
From what you posted there is nothing wrong with your charging system.
Click to expand...

I already suggested that he reflow the solder on the back of the PCB, not sure he is paying any attention



I still think the igniter is intermittent, if you had the igniter off can you re flow the solder on the back of the PCB? That has a good chance of making it stable.

If not take your chances with an E-bay unit of buy a Dyna-S.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dyna-S-Elect...-/380382026185
Click to expand...
 
Hi,

Excuse me for not reading the entire thread just now. I'm just thinking out loud...

Thermally intermittent igniter or coils. Even a fuse can be intermittent.
Loose connection somewhere. (I say this because recently my bike was acting strange until I checked the battery cables. Doh!)
Gas cap or fuel tank filler neck not venting properly.
Inline fuel filter causing fuel starvation.
Cracked/pinched vacuum line.
Pinched or badly routed fuel line.
Faulty petcock.

Keep after it. The problem will be the last thing you check. ;)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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What i cant understand is this...IF the battery is dead enough to shut off the bike..but it sits for a while and it cranks right up. So just how does the battery get magically refeshed enought to retsart it...that entire scenario just doesnt make sense. Once its dead it should STAY DEAD until it put on a charger. I am hedging a bet on fuel starvation symptoms from a faulty petcock or a cracked vacuum line not holding the diaphram open enough. Am i misunderstanding this?
 
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chuck hahn said:
What i cant understand is this...IF the battery is dead enough to shut off the bike..but it sits for a while and it cranks right up. So just how does the battery get magically refeshed enought to retsart it...that entire scenario just doesnt make sense. Once its dead it should STAY DEAD until it put on a charger. I am hedging a bet on fuel starvation symptoms from a faulty petcock or a cracked vacuum line not holding the diaphram open enough. Am i misunderstanding this?
Click to expand...

it is a brand new petcock and fuel is already in the float bowls. It is an electrical problem. The apparent symptom is that it will crank but not fire. When is does fire it is instant on.

The bike is wired to crank with the Kill switch OFF (to stop starter clutch kick backs) . Not sure if there is anyway that looks ON but is really off. I never use the Kill switch ; it is always on for this bike.
 
Those shorai batteries aren't lead acid, so those numbers don't apply. A lead acid battery is fully charged at 12.6 to 12.8 volts depending on plate material. Likes to be trickled at 13.5 volts and is happy to see 14 to 15 out of running stator/alternator. I don't use my kill switch, so I don't know how likely they are to cause problems, but intermitent starting sure would make me suspect it.
 
Yeah, I agree with everyone here that it is probably the ignitor. I've ordered the dyna s and matching dynatek coils. I'll keep you guys posted on what happens.
 
Tinactin said:
Fuses don't randomly blow...if it happens again, you have a fault and must track it down and fix it before operating the bike or replacing the fuse.
Click to expand...

In my experience, they do. If one does, its a good bet to change them all. My theory is that age, use, and vibration eventually gets to them. Experience has shown that if one goes for no discernible reason, more fuses are likely to go.
 
850 Combat said:
In my experience, they do. If one does, its a good bet to change them all. My theory is that age, use, and vibration eventually gets to them. Experience has shown that if one goes for no discernible reason, more fuses are likely to go.
Click to expand...
Most people don't understand that repetative mechanical and thermal stresses on circuit boards, and solder joints are the primary factors causing failures in electronics. Voltage stresses are another but accounts for a smaller portion of failures.
So as you say, when one fuze fails the others are likely to have experienced the same cumulative stress environment and so are as likely to fail as well. Of course you don't have to proactively replace all; if the consequences of failure are low you just run the fuzes to failure and then rePlace
 
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I first changed out the stator, rectifier, and battery. The problem was still there. I then changed out the ignitor, coils, and the signal generator, but the problem was still there. I then changed out the starter solenoid, but that didn't work either. I finally changed out the starter, and bingo! It was the damn starter all along. The bike now starts up straight away and doesn't die out. The bogging when going from a standstill and at 5000 rpm is also gone now.
 
dagreatgatsby said:
I first changed out the stator, rectifier, and battery. The problem was still there. I then changed out the ignitor, coils, and the signal generator, but the problem was still there. I then changed out the starter solenoid, but that didn't work either. I finally changed out the starter, and bingo! It was the damn starter all along. The bike now starts up straight away and doesn't die out. The bogging when going from a standstill and at 5000 rpm is also gone now.
Click to expand...

amazing.............:-k

stator $120
R/R $80
battery $60
Ignitor $120
Coils $120
-------------
total $500 not counting any labor (????)

I don't know how a bad starter would cause the bike to "die out", but I am really glad it helped that "mid range bogging". How do the plugs look now?:rolleyes:
 
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