Budget AFR/EGO Setup

[posplayr]

Jim, looking closer at this... is the rubber tubing really necessary? I understand what you're saying, but while you're on the move what's the chance of cold air coming in compared to the exhaust gases going out? I would think the chances of that would be pretty slim wouldn't it? Or was this a situational thing at the time you did it?

Basically I can't use the Innovate clamp on my pipe as it has a reverse megaphone on the end, so I'd need to make something up. I'm thinking a simple length of galvanised steel pipe (easy to get hold of) with a bung welded in stuffed as far down the pipe as I can get it would do the trick, along the lines of what you've done there.

You can't just but the bung right at the end of the pipe, it needs to have at least some distance to keep the fresh air away; If you put the bug up near the collector then you have 2-3 feet of extra distance. So adding 2-3 foot of hose is trying to replicate that. Exactly how far is required that is difficult to determine (without a dyno). Adding a little extra hose caused little problem. I would rather do that than risk having fresh air come back into the O2 sensor and corrupt the measurements.

You are always in danger of a Leo's attention when doing these types of measurements ; best to keep them to a minimum.

 

[Guest]

If you are interested in using a WB02 sensor, the best thing I could suggest is that do your measurements on a very long (1 mile) 6% uphill which is what I found worked very well of checking jetting. No too many of those around so a dyno would also work.

I did a series of pulls at 1/4 , 1/2 , 3/4 and WOT in each of 3,4 and 5th gear.
You need to get to get slowly past redline to check the jetting. For my ED that was just about right in 4th gear (at 110).

(maybe not WOT in 5th)

What you encounter is that when the bike is reving real fast the dynamics of the CV float moving up and down causes AFR changes and it is difficult to get a reading.

You need to keep the RPM rising more slowly as you hold the throttle position fixed steady. I put a piece of tape with marks at the indicated test position. Since I have speed and RPM I can always tell where I am.

The steep hill represents a load that keeps you from reving too fast in the upper gears. Although you start going pretty fast regardless. You need to slowly have RPM increase past redline. On my bike I can do that in 4th gear.

Ok, there are some places around here that potentially could work, although the speed limit is possibly a little bit of a hinderance to WOT runs...

There are a couple of decent hills on the way to/from work also, so if I can record while commuting I might be able to make use of that time.

You can't just but the bung right at the end of the pipe, it needs to have at least some distance to keep the fresh air away; If you put the bug up near the collector then you have 2-3 feet of extra distance. So adding 2-3 foot of hose is trying to replicate that. Exactly how far is required that is difficult to determine (without a dyno). Adding a little extra hose caused little problem. I would rather do that than risk having fresh air come back into the O2 sensor and corrupt the measurements.

You are always in danger of a Leo's attention when doing these types of measurements ; best to keep them to a minimum.

Firstly, you read my mind in regards to LEO's That's why the query on the hose...

I understand what you're saying there...

However, I looked closely at the Innovate exhaust clamp, and it appears to have an entrance hole and pipe around 6" long, and there's what appears to be a smaller diameter exit hole right near the entrance. The rest of the pipe appears to be sealed with the wideband sensor screwing in at the end of the closed off pipe.

I wonder if I could simply replicate this with some pipe and attach that to my exhaust bracket?

Obviously Innovate expect that to work for the LM-2 given they make/sell it, so it might be worth an email to them to inquire about dimensions and so forth given I can't use their clamp due to the reverse megaphone.

I'm just thinking that may be a little more unobtrusive than a 3' length of rubber hose coiled around the rear there...

 

[koolaid_kid]

However, I looked closely at the Innovate exhaust clamp, and it appears to have an entrance hole and pipe around 6" long, and there's what appears to be a smaller diameter exit hole right near the entrance. The rest of the pipe appears to be sealed with the wideband sensor screwing in at the end of the closed off pipe.

I wonder if I could simply replicate this with some pipe and attach that to my exhaust bracket?

Obviously Innovate expect that to work for the LM-2 given they make/sell it, so it might be worth an email to them to inquire about dimensions and so forth given I can't use their clamp due to the reverse megaphone.

I'm just thinking that may be a little more unobtrusive than a 3' length of rubber hose coiled around the rear there...

Pete, I might know where one is if you need measurements. No need to contact Innovate unless you are driven to it. I can post them in this thread, along with pics, if you just tell me what you want.
And yes, the exhaust makes a "U" and exits near where it enters. They claim this location creates a scavenging effect, which they call a venturi effect.

 

[posplayr]

Ok, there are some places around here that potentially could work, although the speed limit is possibly a little bit of a hinderance to WOT runs...

There are a couple of decent hills on the way to/from work also, so if I can record while commuting I might be able to make use of that time.



Firstly, you read my mind in regards to LEO's That's why the query on the hose...

I understand what you're saying there...

However, I looked closely at the Innovate exhaust clamp, and it appears to have an entrance hole and pipe around 6" long, and there's what appears to be a smaller diameter exit hole right near the entrance. The rest of the pipe appears to be sealed with the wideband sensor screwing in at the end of the closed off pipe.

I wonder if I could simply replicate this with some pipe and attach that to my exhaust bracket?

Obviously Innovate expect that to work for the LM-2 given they make/sell it, so it might be worth an email to them to inquire about dimensions and so forth given I can't use their clamp due to the reverse megaphone.

I'm just thinking that may be a little more unobtrusive than a 3' length of rubber hose coiled around the rear there...

This is what I used to do my sniffer.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/innovate_lm1_intro.htm

Based on the dimensions of the innovate device, it is likely you dont need all of that hose, but I did not have one to make any measurements. I opted to not buy one because with my Yoshi 4:2:1 there is not a real tight seal between mid pipe and collector. I wanted to sniff in front of that junction to avoid potential airleaks corrupting the AFR measurements.

In fact if you were so inclined you could sniff individual pipes, but given the many variables it seems hardly nessesary. At most you would want to do in richen up the two inner cylinders by one step like on the GS1150 did.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/diy_exhaust_probe.htm

Note that the depending upon the ratio of the volume in the pipe with the bung and the cross sectional area of the entrance pipe there will be a averaging effect (i.e. acts as an accumulator). I wanted to minimize this so I wanted the section of pipe to be short and nearly the same size as the sniffer copper pipe.

This all might just be being overly cautious with the sniffer. I simply did not want anything to distort the already difficult measurements to make.

I should mention that after I found the right technique/AFR combinations, the bike got dialed in and ran about 10% better pulling the front wheel of the ground much easier in 2nd gear on roll on wheelies. So I think it is worth the effort for a more moderately modified bike. I was able to find out that the 4:2:1 really is different to the 4:1 as far as jetting and mid range power.

 

[Guest]

Pete, I might know where one is if you need measurements. No need to contact Innovate unless you are driven to it. I can post them in this thread, along with pics, if you just tell me what you want.
And yes, the exhaust makes a "U" and exits near where it enters. They claim this location creates a scavenging effect, which they call a venturi effect.

Mate that would be awesome if you could!

I'm guessing the critical stuff would be the inside diameter of the pipe, length, and how the U shape goes. Probably also where the thread for the sensor ends in relation to the inside of the pipe.

Let me know if that doesn't make sense...

 

[Guest]

This is what I used to do my sniffer.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/innovate_lm1_intro.htm

Based on the dimensions of the innovate device, it is likely you dont need all of that hose, but I did not have one to make any measurements. I opted to not buy one because with my Yoshi 4:2:1 there is not a real tight seal between mid pipe and collector. I wanted to sniff in front of that junction to avoid potential airleaks corrupting the AFR measurements.

In fact if you were so inclined you could sniff individual pipes, but given the many variables it seems hardly nessesary. At most you would want to do in richen up the two inner cylinders by one step like on the GS1150 did.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/diy_exhaust_probe.htm

Note that the depending upon the ratio of the volume in the pipe with the bung and the cross sectional area of the entrance pipe there will be a averaging effect (i.e. acts as an accumulator). I wanted to minimize this so I wanted the section of pipe to be short and nearly the same size as the sniffer copper pipe.

This all might just be being overly cautious with the sniffer. I simply did not want anything to distort the already difficult measurements to make.

I should mention that after I found the right technique/AFR combinations, the bike got dialed in and ran about 10% better pulling the front wheel of the ground much easier in 2nd gear on roll on wheelies. So I think it is worth the effort for a more moderately modified bike. I was able to find out that the 4:2:1 really is different to the 4:1 as far as jetting and mid range power.

Thanks Jim, nothing wrong at all with being cautious! That's why I'm thinking if I can replicate the Innovate one that might be the safest option...

Also good to see the LM-2 giving you real world results which is what I'm hoping for also.

 

[posplayr]

Thanks Jim, nothing wrong at all with being cautious! That's why I'm thinking if I can replicate the Innovate one that might be the safest option...

Also good to see the LM-2 giving you real world results which is what I'm hoping for also.

If you have an air leak at your collector the Innovate sniffer would not work.

 

[Guest]

If you have an air leak at your collector the Innovate sniffer would not work.

That makes lots of sense to me Jim.

I tried to get my headers off the pipe to get the exhaust gaskets in but it's sealed so well I couldn't budge it, so I don't think that will be an issue for me. I had to sort of slide it forward far enough so I could get the gaskets in, but that was it. Not sure what I'm gonna do if I need to take it off at some point

 

[koolaid_kid]

If you have an air leak at your collector the Innovate sniffer would not work.

Well, to be more accurate, you will get readings, but they will be incorrect due to the injection of outside air. And it will not tell you that, or at least my LM-1 does not.

 

[posplayr]

Well, to be more accurate, you will get readings, but they will be incorrect due to the injection of outside air. And it will not tell you that, or at least my LM-1 does not.

With an air leak at the collector, the short Innovate sniffer will not provide an unadultrated exhaust sample to the WB sensor.

That is what I meant by not work.

 

[posplayr]

That makes lots of sense to me Jim.

I tried to get my headers off the pipe to get the exhaust gaskets in but it's sealed so well I couldn't budge it, so I don't think that will be an issue for me. I had to sort of slide it forward far enough so I could get the gaskets in, but that was it. Not sure what I'm gonna do if I need to take it off at some point

stock pipes would probably not have the same issue. With aftermarket pipes I have had popping on occasion depending upon this header collector seal.

 

[Guest]

stock pipes would probably not have the same issue. With aftermarket pipes I have had popping on occasion depending upon this header collector seal.

This one's very after market, but seems to be sealed very well.

The guy who made it (at Tranzac) puts some high temp sealer in when he puts them together so no leaks fortunately.

 

[Guest]

I spoke with my wife yesterday and it looks like there's a chance I can get budget for an LM-2 at the end of next month

 

[posplayr]

I spoke with my wife yesterday and it looks like there's a chance I can get budget for an LM-2 at the end of next month

Pete,
You should probably try and get a LM-1 instead of the LM-2. The LM-1 would be much more reliable and actually work. I used the LM-2 with an LMA-3 so the LM-2 was only WB02.

this guy claims to have a complete setup for $200 BIN, that woudl be 1/2 as much as most other alternatives and it woudl actually work.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/INNOVATE-MO...t=Car_Audio_Video&hash=item35bc8451f6&vxp=mtr

 

[Guest]

Pete,
You should probably try and get a LM-1 instead of the LM-2. The LM-1 would be much more reliable and actually work. I used the LM-2 with an LMA-3 so the LM-2 was only WB02.

this guy claims to have a complete setup for $200 BIN, that woudl be 1/2 as much as most other alternatives and it woudl actually work.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/INNOVATE-MO...t=Car_Audio_Video&hash=item35bc8451f6&vxp=mtr

What's the drawback with the LM-2 Jim? I thought it was the new and improved LM-1 with more functions etc.?

I can get a new LM-2 basic kit for $349 plus the analog cable (for RPM's and TPS if I can pull it off) for an extra $33.

I just had a look at the LMA-3 and the only double up I see is RPM's, everything else the LMA-3 does the LM-2 doesn't. So did you have issues with getting RPM's into the LM-2?

I did some Googling of LM-1 vs LM-2 and all I got back were positives about the LM-2 over the LM-1. The only issue I saw was getting RPM's to work and that seems to be the same fix for the Acewell gauge which is simply sticking a resistor inline to attenuate the signal. I can easily get the RPM line hooked up to my Acewell tach. input which already has the attenuator.

 

[salty_monk]

Wouldn't this work too?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-LC...es&hash=item3a74de8ee1&vxp=mtr#ht_2160wt_1163

 

[posplayr]

What's the drawback with the LM-2 Jim? I thought it was the new and improved LM-1 with more functions etc.?

I can get a new LM-2 basic kit for $349 plus the analog cable (for RPM's and TPS if I can pull it off) for an extra $33.

I just had a look at the LMA-3 and the only double up I see is RPM's, everything else the LMA-3 does the LM-2 doesn't. So did you have issues with getting RPM's into the LM-2?

I did some Googling of LM-1 vs LM-2 and all I got back were positives about the LM-2 over the LM-1. The only issue I saw was getting RPM's to work and that seems to be the same fix for the Acewell gauge which is simply sticking a resistor inline to attenuate the signal. I can easily get the RPM line hooked up to my Acewell tach. input which already has the attenuator.

I never tried the LM-2 RPM. Katman had and just sent the whole bunch back. I used the LMA-3 but even that was a challange to get speed and RPM to play together. Maybe they have fixed it by now. It has been slose to two years since I worked with it.

here is a clue; the forum is gone


It is hard to fin bad stuff nut I tried to post stuff.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php

 

[posplayr]

What's the drawback with the LM-2 Jim? I thought it was the new and improved LM-1 with more functions etc.?

I can get a new LM-2 basic kit for $349 plus the analog cable (for RPM's and TPS if I can pull it off) for an extra $33.

I just had a look at the LMA-3 and the only double up I see is RPM's, everything else the LMA-3 does the LM-2 doesn't. So did you have issues with getting RPM's into the LM-2?

I did some Googling of LM-1 vs LM-2 and all I got back were positives about the LM-2 over the LM-1. The only issue I saw was getting RPM's to work and that seems to be the same fix for the Acewell gauge which is simply sticking a resistor inline to attenuate the signal. I can easily get the RPM line hooked up to my Acewell tach. input which already has the attenuator.

I have never heard of the RPM on an LM-2 working....................
RPM and SPEED was a challenge on the LMA-3. It was a circuit design flaw on the input comparator circuit.

the forum is now gone, that should say something.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=165267&highlight=innovate

I have an MSECE and had expert help and it was still a challenge.

 

[gearhead13]

I never tried the LM-2 RPM. Katman had and just sent the whole bunch back. I used the LMA-3 but even that was a challange to get speed and RPM to play together. Maybe they have fixed it by now. It has been slose to two years since I worked with it.

here is a clue; the forum is gone


It is hard to fin bad stuff nut I tried to post stuff.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php

This is one big reason why I haven't bought any other Innovate stuff after reading about the problems with stuff and them just trying to "sweep them under the rug"
Unlike posplayr, I dont have a masters degree to figure stuff out. If you pay that much for it, it should work properly and fairly easily.
I was seriously thinking of buying an ssi-4 so I could log other data, like speed and rpm.
The biggest thing I don't like about the setup is that in order to calibrate or remove the O2 sensor the entire cable has to be unplugged and de-routed, instead of just unbolt it with a nut that turns independently of the entire wire Maybe thats just the way O2 sensors are, but its quite inconvenient and annoying.
I ran the bike with the gauge unhooked and hooked up, unhooked, I saw 13v just off idle, hooked up volts dropped to low 12's at idle

 

[Guest]

Hmmm... thanks guys, you've given me lots more to think about now...

Dan, the LC-1 will work, but no data logging or other inputs on that one.

So here's what I'm thinking...

I know the budget setup is a bust (eg. Jaycar kit etc.) so I think if I'm going to do this I need to do it properly.

That means wideband sensor and data logging with RPM and TPS, although TPS will be a matter of if I can set it up or not.

So, the LM-1 won't do all that right? And I can only buy a second hand one now as Innovate only sell the LM-2.

So, what are the alternatives to Innovate products?

A bit dearer but still has data logging and can do RPM and TPS:

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/WEGO3.html

This one's a locally made in Aus one (apparently) and is quite inexpensive but not designed to be portable and has no display by default. The display adds quite a bit too:

http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm

There's Zeitronix stuff as well, but very pricey...

It looks like the Innovate LM-2 is the only real option for a true hand held one, but that doesn't mean a "fixed" unit can't be made portable, so the Aussie WBO2 one could definitely be a goer... maybe...

Thoughts? Any other alternatives I'm missing?

Oh, there's new LM-2 firmware available again from Feb this year too, 1.15 I think...