Charging System QUICK TEST

[Guest]

The key ON test and having a low voltage (below 12V) does not necessarily mean you have a bad battery, it just means low SOC. That could be because a battery not taking charge (BAD) or it means it just has not been charged. For a liter bike, I would be more worried about starter clutch kickback trying to crank the bike with low voltage. Also, the bike could be very hard to start if the coils are not seeing at very least 11volts.

From what you are describing, you are not charging enough to overcome the loads. Most loads are pretty standard as they are DOT approved lighting or 3-4 ohm coils. This is why the key on the test is pretty reliable load test as long as the headlamp comes on.
Trying to use your starter as a load test is going to be problematic because you don't know if the starter is dragging (drawing more current than it should). You can have grease in the windings, shorted windings, worn commutator and brushes poor connections.
These will all slow the cranking which will make it take longer to get the bike to start and use more energy from the battery.

The SH775 is a monster(especially with the connector). The Compufire is much smaller and I was able to mount in the stock location. Sounds like you did about the best you could with your long run length to the tail. You know how to measure the voltage drops so keep tabs on them to see if they get any worse from corrosion. You should have run 14 ga wire for those long lengths and minimize connections. Any further degradation will be from corrosion at the contacts.

The tests were done about 60 minutes after I removed the battery from the charger. I wanted to eliminate the artificially high initial voltage reading of a "just off the charger" battery.

When the battery is fully charged the starter spins quickly and the bike starts immediately, whether warm or cold. It's never difficult to start.

I used 14 gauge wire for all the R/R connections. I did not flow solder into the terminal connections, but did use a proper ratchet-style crimping tool and the correct terminals. Perhaps the solder should be my next step.

I'm going to continue to monitor the situation with my voltmeter (when it arrives) and hopefully figure out what is happening. Is there anything else, other than wiring and connections, that I should check?

Thank you, as always, for your advice and insight.

 

[posplayr]

The tests were done about 60 minutes after I removed the battery from the charger. I wanted to eliminate the artificially high initial voltage reading of a "just off the charger" battery.

When the battery is fully charged the starter spins quickly and the bike starts immediately, whether warm or cold. It's never difficult to start.

I used 14 gauge wire for all the R/R connections. I did not flow solder into the terminal connections, but did use a proper ratchet-style crimping tool and the correct terminals. Perhaps the solder should be my next step.

I'm going to continue to monitor the situation with my voltmeter (when it arrives) and hopefully figure out what is happening. Is there anything else, other than wiring and connections, that I should check?

Thank you, as always, for your advice and insight.

As mentioned your connections are probably pretty clean. Did you spray them with Deoxit? Those crimps are supposed to form an "airtight" seal between wire and crimp. It is for a while but after a few years the integrity probably diminishes (depends on local humidity). For any connection between the battery and the R/R I always crimp and then flow some solder into the crimp to bond the wire (keep out corrosion) to the crimped end.

The only thing I don't recall you mentioning, but you asked. There is a crimp at the "T" in the harness. It is typically about 3" into the harness from where the red wire disappears. You can unwrap the harness to find it and clean and flow solder into it. Basically, there is a straight wire running from battery to ignition switch. The R/R(+) lead is crimped to this wire.

The only other thing is the Electrosport stator is supposed to have 20% more power outputt, but as I have described in the past this can only be at lower RPM because the one you get to a high enough RPM the charging power is limited by the magnetic strength of the rotor. If you are at anything above 3500 RPM, it will have zero effect.

The other thing to do is look for a quiescent current draw. With the bike off, put an amp meter in series with the negative terminal of the battery. The SH775 only draws about 2mA so if yo usee a lot more than that you need to chase it down. The Campfire draws none (that I could measure).

 

[Guest]

I realize you don't seem to have done a SPG. As you describe with running R/R(-) direct to the battery, suggest there are no other wires. I'm not sure where your other grounds are routed, but if this is really true you would be directing 14 amps through the single wire from the battery(-) to r/r(-). That is the most current flow anywhere other than when the starter is running.

So I configured a SPG on Saturday evening, on the front mounting bolt of the battery box. This is the mounting point for one of the harness ring lugs. To this point I connected the R/R ground, battery negative and ran a ground wire to another point on the frame. The other harness ground is stock, a ring lug to the solenoid mounting bolt.

Went for a ride yesterday with both highway speeds and town cruising. Battery voltage upon my return was 12.88 and it was still at that value when checked an hour later. The bike started normally then as well. So, fingers crossed. I'll ride and check again hopefully tonight.

 

[posplayr]

So I configured a SPG on Saturday evening, on the front mounting bolt of the battery box. This is the mounting point for one of the harness ring lugs. To this point I connected the R/R ground, battery negative and ran a ground wire to another point on the frame. The other harness ground is stock, a ring lug to the solenoid mounting bolt.

Went for a ride yesterday with both highway speeds and town cruising. Battery voltage upon my return was 12.88 and it was still at that value when checked an hour later. The bike started normally then as well. So, fingers crossed. I'll ride and check again hopefully tonight.

With this change, all the ground currents converge at the SPG and the 14A only goes through a short run of 14G to the R/R(-) (which is good). The wire coming from the battery will only carry about 3 amps when fully charging rather than the full 14 amps (which should reduce the voltage drops between the battery and R/R).

A little Deoxit sprayed on the stack should keep it corrosion free, but an annual spray would not hurt.

 

[Boriqua]

I will have to run the tests again. I just cant seem to have the battery hold more than 12.25 at rest. I just took it off of a battery tender and its initial voltage was 12.75. Put everything back together so figure 10-15 minutes and it was down to 12.52.

Yesterday after installing my SH775 The bike measured 12.25 at rest before I headed out. Rode about 10 miles mostly at about 4500 rpm and when I returned I took a reading and it was 12.68. Today ... 12.25.

The battery is a no name wet cell that is now a bit more than a year old. The stator is less than a year old electrosport. Im thinking its the battery. Batteries die fast and hard here.

 

[posplayr]

I will have to run the tests again. I just cant seem to have the battery hold more than 12.25 at rest. I just took it off of a battery tender and its initial voltage was 12.75. Put everything back together so figure 10-15 minutes and it was down to 12.52.

Yesterday after installing my SH775 The bike measured 12.25 at rest before I headed out. Rode about 10 miles mostly at about 4500 rpm and when I returned I took a reading and it was 12.68. Today ... 12.25.

The battery is a no name wet cell that is now a bit more than a year old. The stator is less than a year old electrosport. Im thinking its the battery. Batteries die fast and hard here.

Even though you're "at rest" voltage is low (about 0.4V from typical), you should always test under some kind of known load. The "keyon" test with lights on is about 10 amps and should drop about 0.6-1.0v but not much more.

A battery tender only puts out 1 amp so it is not a charger and will usually not bring back a depleted battery very fast if at all. Measure the voltage with the charger plugged in. The voltage will probably be somewhat above 13V but with your low voltage at rest it may not even be above 13V. You typically have to get above 12.8 to be doing anything (i.e. 12.8v is doing nothing)

 

[Boriqua]

I had the battery tender on for about 5.5 hours. I only took it off because the light went from red to green. I will try the load test but I was under the impression that once the green light came on the battery tender it stopped producing voltage so I dont think leaving it on any longer will help.

 

[posplayr]

I had the battery tender on for about 5.5 hours. I only took it off because the light went from red to green. I will try the load test but I was under the impression that once the green light came on the battery tender it stopped producing voltage so I dont think leaving it on any longer will help.

measure the voltage

 

[Guest]

With this change, all the ground currents converge at the SPG and the 14A only goes through a short run of 14G to the R/R(-) (which is good). The wire coming from the battery will only carry about 3 amps when fully charging rather than the full 14 amps (which should reduce the voltage drops between the battery and R/R).

A little Deoxit sprayed on the stack should keep it corrosion free, but an annual spray would not hurt.

Went for another ride last night, again both highway and town cruising. All is well. When I stopped and turned off the motor it started up readily. Arrived at home and the battery was at 12.91v. 60 minutes later it was at 12.88v, and dropped to 12.3v when the switch was turned on.

For my SPG I did spray each ring lug with Deoxit and then coated them with dielectric grease before installing.

I'm hoping that my charging system gremlins have now been banished. Thanks once again for your assistance and advice.

 

[Guest]

Background: new stator, new battery, SH775, single point ground.

So, a potentially strange occurrence while riding. I installed the voltmeter and the charging system is operating as expected, at least initially. When I start out the voltage rises to 14.1 at around 2000-2500RPM, and rises to a max of about 14.6 at 5500-6000RPM. The voltage fluctuates up and down depending on RPM as you would expect. However, when I went for a ride last night I wound up to redline a few times. After this, the voltage would rise only to 13.8 max, and would sit around 13.4 when cruising. Went for a ride today and everything was working as expected - 14.1 to 14.6 - until I stopped for a break and shut down. 45 minutes later the bike started just fine, but the voltages were maxing out at 13.4 to 13.8 again and stayed that way until I got home. When shut off, the voltage is at about 12.9 then will slowly drop to 12.7 or 12.65 over a period of hours, where is stays. The bikes starts without issue and runs fine.

So, my question is: is this normal? Does the SH775 see the battery as having enough charge so it reduces output accordingly? Or is something else going on?

 

[posplayr]

Background: new stator, new battery, SH775, single point ground.

So, a potentially strange occurrence while riding. I installed the voltmeter and the charging system is operating as expected, at least initially. When I start out the voltage rises to 14.1 at around 2000-2500RPM, and rises to a max of about 14.6 at 5500-6000RPM. The voltage fluctuates up and down depending on RPM as you would expect. However, when I went for a ride last night I wound up to redline a few times. After this, the voltage would rise only to 13.8 max, and would sit around 13.4 when cruising. Went for a ride today and everything was working as expected - 14.1 to 14.6 - until I stopped for a break and shut down. 45 minutes later the bike started just fine, but the voltages were maxing out at 13.4 to 13.8 again and stayed that way until I got home. When shut off, the voltage is at about 12.9 then will slowly drop to 12.7 or 12.65 over a period of hours, where is stays. The bikes starts without issue and runs fine.

So, my question is: is this normal? Does the SH775 see the battery as having enough charge so it reduces output accordingly? Or is something else going on?

It sounds like your stator is going out. I know you said it is new, but is there any possibility you pinched the stator wires during installation. It has happened before; under the cover.

To answer your question the SH775 only knows one thing and that is 14.5V. The only reason you don't see that all the time is at idle the stator just can't go any higher, but it is not the SH775 limiting it.

 

[Guest]

It sounds like your stator is going out. I know you said it is new, but is there any possibility you pinched the stator wires during installation. It has happened before; under the cover.

I'm changing the oil this week and replacing the stator cover gasket so I will check then. The stator is brand new, from RM Stator.

 

[posplayr]

I'm changing the oil this week and replacing the stator cover gasket so I will check then. The stator is brand new, from RM Stator.

When the bike is hot and not fully charging run the leg to ground Phase B tests at 5K RPM. You are probably going to see some AC.

 

[Guest]

Will do. Could faulty or shorting connections further upstream, i.e. under the seat, cause this as well? Just trying to identify places to look after the Phase B test, just in case.

And when you refer to pinched stator wires, are you referring to the 3 leads or the actual windings?

 

[posplayr]

Will do. Could faulty or shorting connections further upstream, i.e. under the seat, cause this as well? Just trying to identify places to look after the Phase B test, just in case.

And when you refer to pinched stator wires, are you referring to the 3 leads or the actual windings?

Anywhere between stator and r/r and including the stator itself

 

[Guest]

Okay, so it's not good news. I did the Phase B tests with the following results:

1. 1.4, 1.4, 1.4
2. Infinite X3
3. 76V+ for each leg

And now for the bad news...
4. Leg to ground at approx. 5000RPM with a hot engine - approx. 16 volts for each leg.

So could this be a pinched wire or is this more likely a bad stator? I realized I'll be pulling the stator but it seems odd that all 3 legs are grounded like that.

Damn.

 

[posplayr]

Okay, so it's not good news. I did the Phase B tests with the following results:

1. 1.4, 1.4, 1.4
2. Infinite X3
3. 76V+ for each leg

And now for the bad news...
4. Leg to ground at approx. 5000RPM with a hot engine - approx. 16 volts for each leg.

So could this be a pinched wire or is this more likely a bad stator? I realized I'll be pulling the stator but it seems odd that all 3 legs are grounded like that.

Damn.

You can see why I constantly reiterate doing leg to ground at 5k! Even the leg to leg is questionable and don’t get me started on the ohm meter.

you can do a detailed inspection and possibly not find anything . If that is the case see if you can send it back to Ricks. I never liked how little epoxy they used, but then I’m jumping to conclusions.

if you want to do a service to the GSR get a megger off eBay and do some testing. Make sure there is no possibility of of shorting of leads which would leave the grounding to something in the stator.

 

[Guest]

You can see why I constantly reiterate doing leg to ground at 5k! Even the leg to leg is questionable and don’t get me started on the ohm meter.

you can do a detailed inspection and possibly not find anything . If that is the case see if you can send it back to Ricks. I never liked how little epoxy they used, but then I’m jumping to conclusions.

if you want to do a service to the GSR get a megger off eBay and do some testing. Make sure there is no possibility of of shorting of leads which would leave the grounding to something in the stator.

It's actually an RM Stator, not a Ricks. I'm in Canada and so is RM, so the shipping was free and the price was right. There is a 1 year warranty on it, and it's only 2 or 3 months old.

I can't imagine that I pinched 3 wires and grounded them out, but I will check. The oil is draining as I type. Is there a stator brand that you would recommend? I'm going to try for a warranty replacement on this one, but if that doesn't work out I'll be looking for another.

 

[posplayr]

Electro sport

 

[Guest]

Electro sport

Well, there are no pinched wires. They look good from stator to connectors at the other end. I slid the fabric insulation sleeve up from both ends so I could check thoroughly. That said, I'd be surprised if I had pinched all 3 wires. Could there be an internal stator problem that's causing it ground out when it gets hot?

I'm emailing them now about warranty and will quote my test results