Do I have major trouble in "Big Red" land??

[Guest]

First, a little background...

"Big Red", aka, 1981 GS1100E I bought not running last Summer. Cleaned & rebuilt the carbs, sealed the fuel tank, added K&N pods, stage 3 jet kit with 4-1 pipe and got her started last Fall. Ran very nicely, but never drove her as she wasn't road worthy. However, sitting on the center stand she easily throttled up to red line & idled smoothly at 1K. Head gasket was leaking so I thought that would be a great Winter project...

Ok, cold Winter, lazy Mike, yada, yada, yada - now I'm pulling the head to start the "head gasket, valve stem oil seals, new rings, hone the cylinders" job and when I rotate the crank to line up the 1/4 T mark I notice the exhaust cam #1 arrow is pointing where it should (flush with the head surface, pointing forward), but the intake cam #3 arrow is about 90 retarded... So I keep turning the crank around & around to see where the cam marks will show up next & then everything stops. I can no longer turn the crank forward - it will rotate backward, but not forward any longer. It just will not move & I don't want to force it. I will also point out that I have already removed the cam chain tensioner, but I'm not sure that makes any difference...

So I ask you guys - what does this mean?? I can hear what sounds like gears meshing from the stator cover - I disengaged the starter but the crank will not rotate forward.

I haven't removed the head yet, because I was freaked out about the crank not rotating forward anymore - what is my problem & what's my next move?

TIA

Mike

 

[rapidray]

Mike, call me at 714-356-7845 & I will help you. Ray.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Do you think the cam chain slipped off and got jammed? Just wondering.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Big T]

You probably have cam chain bunching up in the crank case or on a guide. You shouldn't be rotating with the tensioner out

Since it will rotate backwards, nothing is broken (so far)

Get your wrenchs out and tear it down. Corrections can be made before you reassemble

 

[Calvin Blackmore]

First, a little background...

"Big Red", aka, 1981 GS1100E I bought not running last Summer. Cleaned & rebuilt the carbs, sealed the fuel tank, added K&N pods, stage 3 jet kit with 4-1 pipe and got her started last Fall. Ran very nicely, but never drove her as she wasn't road worthy. However, sitting on the center stand she easily throttled up to red line & idled smoothly at 1K. Head gasket was leaking so I thought that would be a great Winter project...

Ok, cold Winter, lazy Mike, yada, yada, yada - now I'm pulling the head to start the "head gasket, valve stem oil seals, new rings, hone the cylinders" job and when I rotate the crank to line up the 1/4 T mark I notice the exhaust cam #1 arrow is pointing where it should (flush with the head surface, pointing forward), but the intake cam #3 arrow is about 90 retarded... So I keep turning the crank around & around to see where the cam marks will show up next & then everything stops. I can no longer turn the crank forward - it will rotate backward, but not forward any longer. It just will not move & I don't want to force it. I will also point out that I have already removed the cam chain tensioner, but I'm not sure that makes any difference...

So I ask you guys - what does this mean?? I can hear what sounds like gears meshing from the stator cover - I disengaged the starter but the crank will not rotate forward.

I haven't removed the head yet, because I was freaked out about the crank not rotating forward anymore - what is my problem & what's my next move?

TIA

Mike

could the cam cahin be binding now due to the released pressure on the tensioner?

the stator noise sounds like the starter clutch is engaged.
did you remove the starter completley if so the gears inside could still be engaged I dont think this would stop the crank though not unless removal of the starter drops some parts inside the cover but that would be bad enginerring of the type suzuki only used in electrical parts.

 

[Nessism]

Hey Mike,

NEVER rotate an engine with the cam chain tensioner out; the valves will crash into the pistons. As long as you didn't hit the starter button or try to force the engine to turn over with a wrench you should be okay.

I'd just stop and pull that head since I assume that was your plan anyway. Call me if you want to discuss.

 

[Guest]

Keep pulling it apart. You're ok.

 

[Guest]

Thanks guys...

I realize (after talking with rapidray) that my error was to try & rotate the engine with the tensioner removed. I didn't force anything, so i've continued to take it apart & will thank my lucky stars I wasn't stupid enough to apply gorrila force.

I'm sure you'll all hear back from me when I re-assemble...

Geez, I did this once before on my 750 - you'd think I'd remember how it goes.

Thanks again,

Mike

 

[Guest]

Just an item of note - I removed the head & jugs tonight, and when I pulled the head off I found a small threaded nut sitting on the #2 piston...

Looked like the lock nut from a valve adjuster, but all were accounted for .

Haven't a clue where it came from...

Everything looked pretty good inside - no ridges on the cylinder walls & the valves didn't look burnt. With 38K on the clock I didn't know what to expect.

Stay tuned...

 

[rapidray]

Mike, put up a pic of the nut! Ray.

 

[Guest]

Mike, put up a pic of the nut! Ray.

Thanks again for the pep-talk last night Ray...

As I laid in bed last night I thought that nut came from the horn mount. I typically leave the nuts on the mounting studs when I remove things like horns & the like so I don't lose them.

I figured that when I lifted up the head to remove it, I must've somehow caused that nut to drop - however, when I looked this morning both horn mounting nuts were securely in place!! So much for that theory...

The nut isn't grunged up at all like the piston tops, so that leads me to believe it somehow just dropped in there as I was removing the head.

Don't know where it could have come from though...

 

[Steve]

Don't know where it could have come from though...

Check your coil mounts. :-k

That's about the only other thing that size in that area.

.

 

[Guest]

Check your coil mounts. :-k

That's about the only other thing that size in that area.

.

The coils are not mounted, only the bare brackets are on the frame - I may have dropped a coil mount nut last Fall when I removed them, got caught in the wiring harness & then forgot about it...

I don't remember, but it's a plausible explanation, I'm going with that one

 

[sam78gs750]

I apologize for the threadjack, but I have a question that pertains to this.... If you can't rotate the crankshaft with the camchain tensioner out, how do you line up the timing marks to set the valve timing when you are installing the camshafts? Not that I did something as stupid as removing the cams without lining up the crank first...:-\\\ No, nothing like that...this is just a "what if" question, yeah...that's it....

 

[Guest]

I apologize for the threadjack, but I have a question that pertains to this.... If you can't rotate the crankshaft with the camchain tensioner out, how do you line up the timing marks to set the valve timing when you are installing the camshafts? Not that I did something as stupid as removing the cams without lining up the crank first...:-\\\ No, nothing like that...this is just a "what if" question, yeah...that's it....

You slip the chain over the sprockets in their correct postition and then install the tensioner.

 

[Guest]

I apologize for the threadjack, but I have a question that pertains to this.... If you can't rotate the crankshaft with the camchain tensioner out, how do you line up the timing marks to set the valve timing when you are installing the camshafts? Not that I did something as stupid as removing the cams without lining up the crank first...:-\\\ No, nothing like that...this is just a "what if" question, yeah...that's it....

You don't want to rotate the crank with the cam chain tensioner out when the cams are still in place, that's what I was trying to do & that results in the piston whacking the "opened" valve because the chain length is different when the tensioner is removed & the engine is no longer in time...

No problem once the cams are out, there's no lobes to open the valves without the cams.

To reinstall the cams, first pull the chain up by hand to keep some tension on it (don't let it slip back down the tunnel) & slowly turn the crank to the proper timing mark. Put the cams through the chain loop, & lay them on their journal surfaces (without the caps). Without moving the chain/crank, rotate the exhaust cam to the correct mark (#1 arrow pointing forward & flush with the head surface I believe) and then engage the chain. There should be a #2 arrow pointing straight up on that exhaust cam, now count the proper number of chain pins to align the #3 arrow on the intake cam.

I'm not sure exactly of the pin numbers & such, so check your manual for the correct alignments, but the procedure is the same.

Take care to line up all the marks (crank, cams, pins) EXACTLY... one tooth off will drive you nuts because the bike will not run right. Check & double check & triple check your alignment.

Good luck - I'll be doing the same very soon myself.

 

[sam78gs750]

You don't want to rotate the crank with the cam chain tensioner out when the cams are still in place, that's what I was trying to do & that results in the piston whacking the "opened" valve because the chain length is different when the tensioner is removed & the engine is no longer in time...

No problem once the cams are out, there's no lobes to open the valves without the cams.

Thanks for clearing up my confusion. I have the service manual and am pretty clear on the procedure for lining everything up. I just read the responses to your post and got worried that I screwed up by not lining up the crank before I took the cams out. Everyone got all serious about not rotating the crank with the tensioner out...I didn't realize that they meant the warnings for only while the cams are still in.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for clearing up my confusion. I have the service manual and am pretty clear on the procedure for lining everything up. I just read the responses to your post and got worried that I screwed up by not lining up the crank before I took the cams out. Everyone got all serious about not rotating the crank with the tensioner out...I didn't realize that they meant the warnings for only while the cams are still in.

I hear ya... I'm the idiot who was trying to turn the crank after removing the tensioner, and wondering why it wouldn't move!

One trick to verify the 1 & 4 pistons are at the top (T mark) is to put a wooden dowel (new pencil) down the spark plug hole of # 4 and watch it go up & down while you turn the crank - should be at TDC when the 1/4 T mark is lined up.

 

[Guest]

I hear ya... I'm the idiot who was trying to turn the crank after removing the tensioner, and wondering why it wouldn't move!

One trick to verify the 1 & 4 pistons are at the top (T mark) is to put a wooden dowel (new pencil) down the spark plug hole of # 4 and watch it go up & down while you turn the crank - should be at TDC when the 1/4 T mark is lined up.

With the cams out it makes no difference. TDC is TDC 1&4 either way. With the cams in every other is the compression stroke for 1 or 4. It alternates between 1&4 cylinders.

 

[Guest]

With the cams out it makes no difference. TDC is TDC 1&4 either way. With the cams in every other is the compression stroke for 1 or 4. It alternates between 1&4 cylinders.

hey bill,

can you elaborate a bit on this... does the 1/4 T mark goes around twice for each complete piston travel cycle; so you could be 180 out?