EFI Gurus needed. dragbike efi swap

[ArttuH]

ok cool. so i like to run just one pump, keeps eveything sweet and simple. and yes i wont make more than 200 hp, it will be a 1200cc or less motor, and blown on nitro at most, so i think no more than 300hp at max, the bottom end would let loose way before that!

So arrtu I am thinking EFI would be the best best, just have to buy MS and fuel system. Would you suggest mechanical or electric for the pump?I can buy wholesale on automotive side of high performance, cant get the mechanical pumps though. It would be electric pumps. If you dont think the ebay walbro pump would be good, i have to check on aeromotive and the such brands. those are who i can buy...

Electric vs. mechanical pump selection is up to you. If you want to see all the effort to fit a mechanical pump to save battery. If you are looking for simple and cheap installation then electric pump is better option, IMO. For 200hp almost any electric EFI pump will do. 300hp with methanol/nitro will be more challenging but maybe still doable with an electric pump and total loss electric system. One good option is to start with electric pump and change to mechanical later on if needed. Wasted money and effort will be minimal.

Walbro is a good choice based on my experience.

 

[geek]

ok cool. so i like to run just one pump, keeps eveything sweet and simple. and yes i wont make more than 200 hp, it will be a 1200cc or less motor, and blown on nitro at most, so i think no more than 300hp at max, the bottom end would let loose way before that!

and geek, yes i would run carbs but to put alky and nitro i need bigger flow (air and fuel both) and my carbs wont suffice. and i am not going to pay top dollar for some 33s for someone who paid mere pennies for them, not in the market to make someone rich on a single purchase. i ujnderstand making a buck on something but wont pay top dollar for something that isnt top dollar...

thanks matt

To be clear, I have no parts for sale nor have I ever sold any parts on this site to members. That said, all the setup I have seen ran Lectrons.

I have ran pure methanol on a draw-thru turbo with a single carb and got it to work. Thought about building an EFI for a blow-thru using a single throttle body but stopped working on it when I switched to the busa.

Knew a guy (long time ago) that helped on a T/F Harley Davidson. They had a mag and did not use a pump. The injection system was pretty much an on off valve.

 

[trippivot]

get a Hillborne mechanical injection system -alky or gasoline- made in the 70's. I know of a complete 4 cylinder unit sitting on a shelf with KZ/GS spacing. I have seen it, and held it, so I know they exist. no need to fiddle faddle with pressure sensors/TPS/ECU / just tune to an EGT with a "pill" just like a bigblock V8 toilet.

 

[hotrods316]

no geek dont take any of what i said as directed towards you or anyone on here in particular. i have gotten plenty of parts from members here and they merely wanted shipping covered. the guys here are great people. i was just saying the price of smoothbores is ridiculous at times and i dont have the love affair with them that some do. if i went to carbs i would think lectrons, but i been reading that they dont take kindly to alky. not too sure im a car guy and still learning the nuances of bike parts for racing.

I woould love to see your turbo setup if you have and info pics specs etc. i get little details from everything i see and then mash it in my brain until something that pops out and i go for it. and yes i would love to go mag, nitro, blower, oh wait thats what my new dragster chassis is for, would rather have 200" wheelbase for that then a 58" bike. lol.

and thanks artu for the tips on pump selection, i will take all into consideration while i part the motor together.

TRIP- KNow if the guy wants to sell the injection setup? I have talked to stuart hilborn at PRI and to Walt TImblin (chassis) for over 5 hours and man those guys are great, told me some "speed secrets" if you know what i mean, how the rulebook can go gray after a awhile... so yes i know the setup is out there, microsprints run it around here. but when hilborn wanted a small fortune for a new system, and i was like man, i think i could build one for cheaper. which is what spud told me to doing exactly what you say, get a toilet bowl cheap and build a small plenum manifold to adapt to the motor and bam, injection setup that can be boosted later. i would say i can tune injection fairly well, we switch dragster to 33% stank this past season and didnt hurt anything or anyone (maybe some feelings but hey its NITRO BABY!!!)

ITs really a question of what comes available for the best price as of now, not swayed either way yet.but i like the idea of MS ignition controls built in, but i like the mechanical aspect of the MFI, i know i can diagnose with a wrench at the track if need be, and not need the computer to diagnose at the track...



thanks all and glad more people are seeing this and throwing info at me, it all helps!!!!

 

[geek]

no geek dont take any of what i said as directed towards you or anyone on here in particular.
....

I woould love to see your turbo setup if you have and info pics specs etc. i get little details from everything i see and then mash it in my brain until something that pops out and i go for it. and yes i would love to go mag, nitro, blower, oh wait thats what my new dragster chassis is for, would rather have 200" wheelbase for that then a 58" bike. lol.

No problem, just wanted to clear things up.

That Harley Davidson was an NA motor. They just gravity fed the fuel. They described it as a fuel dump system.

I started to post on that last turbo system.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=207373

I did not get very far before I saw the light.

Some of the things I tried....

No floats, fuel fed into bottom of bowl. A dam sets the fuel height. A second pump removed the excess fuel after the dam and returns it to the top of the vented fuel tank.

One of the floatless carbs mounted up.

Nitrous to help get the thing moving

This setup was 100% methanol. Worked alright but the bike was pretty slow....

 

[geek]

This is close to how it looks now. Gasoline, HSR-42, single nitrous jet. The HSR took some work to get it right and Mr Turbo now sells the spacer plates.

The header, wastegate and plenum are all from the original Mr Turbo kit I bought when they were still located in Chicago.

I would guess this motor makes the kind of power you are looking for but you can ride this thing around in the pits, it's electric start and pretty dependable.

 

[geek]

This is the busa EFI I bought back in November before cutting it up. From what I have read, the Gen II would be even better (more features have been added). I have a friend who just put a Gen II on a K1. Was supposed to go to the dyno this week but I have not heard how it went.

I plan to run the Gen I 32-bit on the street bike with a MicroTech controller. This will be the test bike while I sort out some of this high tech stuff.

 

[posplayr]

This is the busa EFI I bought back in November before cutting it up. From what I have read, the Gen II would be even better (more features have been added). I have a friend who just put a Gen II on a K1. Was supposed to go to the dyno this week but I have not heard how it went.

I plan to run the Gen I 32-bit on the street bike with a MicroTech controller. This will be the test bike while I sort out some of this high tech stuff.

Gee, looks like you are going to have some fun. What did it cost for that compete setup I assume that was stripped of a Busa?

 

[geek]

This guy was switching the motors to Lectrons. About $500 with ignition key, cluster, all sensors, throttle body w/ injectors, ECM, ignition coils and air box. One was from a K5, with under 2000 miles on it (looks new). I plan to use this complete setup. The other one shown in this picture was cut up and used for my test setup.

Picked up a 16 and a 32-bit Gen I ECMs for $70. Both working. I plan to use the 16 at attempt cutting one apart. If it works out, I'll cut open a 32.

A lot of work and things to learn, but having fun with it.

 

[posplayr]

This guy was switching the motors to Lectrons. About $500 with ignition key, cluster, all sensors, throttle body w/ injectors, ECM, ignition coils and air box. One was from a K5, with under 2000 miles on it (looks new). I plan to use this complete setup. The other one shown in this picture was cut up and used for my test setup.

Picked up a 16 and a 32-bit Gen I ECMs for $70. Both working. I plan to use the 16 at attempt cutting one apart. If it works out, I'll cut open a 32.

A lot of work and things to learn, but having fun with it.

Are you going to be able to tune the ecu directly or does it even need it? Power Commander?

 

[geek]

Are you going to be able to tune the ecu directly or does it even need it? Power Commander?

IMO, the ECM and harness will need some small changes. I am planning to use ROM Raider and ECUEditor to make these changes. The MicroTech has it's own software to make adjustments.

Besides the fuel and timing curves, there are other things I want that ECM to do. This shows the basic shifter and 2-step after I got them working.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhODtHjP4c

 

[hotrods316]

geek, did you find this set-up better suited to adapting to the gs over a microsquirt ssetup? you mentioned you saw the light-was just curious...

Also does anyone know if you can wire in a SD card to the datalogger on a MS system so I dont have to strap a backpack to me while making passes down the strip?

MAtt

 

[geek]

geek, did you find this set-up better suited to adapting to the gs over a microsquirt ssetup? you mentioned you saw the light-was just curious...

Also does anyone know if you can wire in a SD card to the datalogger on a MS system so I dont have to strap a backpack to me while making passes down the strip?

MAtt

Hey Matt. I was suggesting that it no longer makes any sense for me to base anything on the 30 year old GS motors. Good virgin parts (cases, cranks) were hard to find then 493 rods dried up.

I think it would be fairly easy to run the GS using the 1300 EFI. But you could run the 1300 motor from the 1300 EFI too. To make 300HP on the GS, you will have to spend some cash if you want it to live. Or you could just drop a stock 1300 in it with a few small changes.

That said, I understand most have moved to the Gen 2 ECM now, even for the Gen 1 motors. Better software support and they are not running the second ECM.

For logging, you could then try what I plan to do, use a small PC. This video shows my logger. This video is quite old, and the software is much better now but you will get the idea. For the faster logging, I plan to use a cheap hardware logger also tied to the same PC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aiAZRtiFyw

If you decide to attempt to run the Gen 1 fuel system and have questions, feel free to ask. I now know a fair amount about it.

 

[posplayr]

Hey Matt. I was suggesting that it no longer makes any sense for me to base anything on the 30 year old GS motors. Good virgin parts (cases, cranks) were hard to find then 493 rods dried up.

I think it would be fairly easy to run the GS using the 1300 EFI. But you could run the 1300 motor from the 1300 EFI too. To make 300HP on the GS, you will have to spend some cash if you want it to live. Or you could just drop a stock 1300 in it with a few small changes.

That said, I understand most have moved to the Gen 2 ECM now, even for the Gen 1 motors. Better software support and they are not running the second ECM.

For logging, you could then try what I plan to do, use a small PC. This video shows my logger. This video is quite old, and the software is much better now but you will get the idea. For the faster logging, I plan to use a cheap hardware logger also tied to the same PC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aiAZRtiFyw

If you decide to attempt to run the Gen 1 fuel system and have questions, feel free to ask. I now know a fair amount about it.

That is quite an impressive setup. I'm pretty familiar with doing simulation, virtual displays and HWIL. I assume you are an also doing this professionally since you are using LabView.

How do you get the LM-2 WBO2 sensor to properly record O2? Do your have some sort of engine model there? How detailed is that?

 

[ArttuH]

geek, did you find this set-up better suited to adapting to the gs over a microsquirt ssetup? you mentioned you saw the light-was just curious...

Also does anyone know if you can wire in a SD card to the datalogger on a MS system so I dont have to strap a backpack to me while making passes down the strip?

MAtt

IMO there isn't much sense to try adapt the Busa ECU to other engines. The tuning software (EcuEditor or Woolich) isn't flexible enough for that. You just can't tune many parameters that are important if you are making major changes to the setup. Sure it's doable but it will need many workarounds and compromises and the result may still be less perfect.

I'm not aware of any plug-and-play dataloggers for MS1 or MS2. The MS3 has built-in SD card logging. There are some logging/tuning applications for Android phones that can be used for convenient logging. That needs also a serial-bluetooth adapter for communication. Btw, that BT adapter is a good addition also with a laptop in bike use. Much more convenient since you don't need to worry about the cable.

 

[geek]

That is quite an impressive setup. I'm pretty familiar with doing simulation, virtual displays and HWIL. I assume you are an also doing this professionally since you are using LabView.

How do you get the LM-2 WBO2 sensor to properly record O2? Do your have some sort of engine model there? How detailed is that?

Thanks. That was mostly a 3 month, no sleep effort. My original plan was to make an engine model and I was planning to do this in Labview. All the hardware is there to close the loop but for now everything is open loop.

I worked in automotive for about 20 years. 15 years ago I gave it up and changed careers.

I bought an LC-2 that I plan on using. The LM-2 is a nice product. It has a lot of features but was looking for something small that I could leave on the bike. I use the

From the software side of things, it's the same. Connecting it to the PC is nothing more than a FTDI USB to serial adapter. They have the protocol documented. I use the FTDI for everything now after the NI screwed up the serial port interface. This chipset works. The other problem is the LC/LM 2 will output data as soon as it is turned on. So the old Windows bug from the 90s rears it's ugly head. I was surprised this was still not addressed in Windows 8. The FTDI drivers allow you to turn off the enumeration.

IMO there isn't much sense to try adapt the Busa ECU to other engines. The tuning software (EcuEditor or Woolich) isn't flexible enough for that. You just can't tune many parameters that are important if you are making major changes to the setup. Sure it's doable but it will need many workarounds and compromises and the result may still be less perfect.

I have seen it used on other brands of bikes but tent to agree, use the 1300 motor. They are as easy to find now as the GS was in the day. I would be interested in hearing what would be considered a major change that would be a problem? I would think going from a NA to forced would be major and I know people doing this with just the stock Gen2 electronics (with a few tweaks).

 

[ArttuH]

I have seen it used on other brands of bikes but tent to agree, use the 1300 motor. They are as easy to find now as the GS was in the day. I would be interested in hearing what would be considered a major change that would be a problem? I would think going from a NA to forced would be major and I know people doing this with just the stock Gen2 electronics (with a few tweaks).

Here are few things that I have noticed with the Gen2 ECU:
-no injector dead time parameters adjustment
-no acceleration enrichment tuning
-no warmup enrichment tuning
-no calibration for most of the sensors

For example if you change the injectors it's pure luck how well dead time matches to the hard coded values in the ECU. And it depends on the case how much this matters. For racing use and with reasonably sized injectors it isn't so crucial since it will affect mostly for idle and low load conditions. But if you want perfectly tuned engine with large injectors this gets more important.

Acceleration and warmup enrichments are probably fine with busa engine and especially in race use where they don't need to be so perfectly tuned. But some other engines may need quite much different values and for street use these should be quite well tuned.

Sensor calibrations are fine as long as you use Busa sensors but with some other engine it might be convenient to be able to use other sensors as well.

Yes, Gen2 ECU can be used for boosted applications as well. I have done a couple of Gen1 to Gen2 conversions for turbo drag bikes.

 

[geek]

Some good thoughts. I doubt EFI would dominate the market if it was not for the push to lower emissions.

OP is talking about a drag bike. I assumed that is was this discussion is about. It would seem that most of these bikes are pushed to the line, pushed to the trailer and held wide open from start to the end of the track. Warmup I guess is the burnout. I totally agree with you if OP is making their nitro street bike pass pass CA smog tests.

 

[hotrods316]

yea i was asking this in regards to a race bike. It warms up in the pits and once warm stays warm until time to make a pass. Bike is fired, no burnout, launch and run commenced. I am drag racing but I get 1 mile to get to speed, 132 feet of speed traps. Pretty much full throttle once moving until run is over. Then I pull in clutch and roll off throttle, ease on brakes and once slowed down I down shift to second, make my turn off track and idle back to pit in first gear after i get my speed slip.

Would be happy to have an idling bike and a bike that runs wide open throttle. forget any street time for the initial application, full race.

geek, all of your above carb experiments didnt make the power you were looking for? I was going to bore my 26mm out to 29.5mm and rejet, figure more carb cant hurt. But want to put gas at first then alky and nitro to bike, not sure if reworked Mikunis will be a good choice for a base to work from or just build up an injection system...

 

[geek]

geek, all of your above carb experiments didnt make the power you were looking for? I was going to bore my 26mm out to 29.5mm and rejet, figure more carb cant hurt. But want to put gas at first then alky and nitro to bike, not sure if reworked Mikunis will be a good choice for a base to work from or just build up an injection system...

They did work for what I was doing at the time. I kept speeding that bike up and eventually, it became apparent that the carb was not going to flow enough fuel. I switched back to gasoline rather than investing in fuel injection. The Mikuni is tuned using jets and made things easier.