EFI Gurus needed. dragbike efi swap

[hotrods316]

Can anyone tell me what throttle bodies I have and what mods I would need to make to them to use in a MS Efi conversion on my gs1000. I am thinking about doing this instead of boring out my vm26's to 29.5. Also been thinking this over a set of smoothbores.

Its going on a race bike so I think the tuning might be easier.

Also has anyone done an efi conversion on a total loss electric system. My bike is total loss. I know pro stock bikes now are efi so i think its possible, but i am doing this on a budget so no big $$$$ will be spent.

It cant be too dificult to accomplish this, just need to pick some brains and thinktank it and show these ole dinosaurs bike still can run!!!!

thanks to anyhelp
Matt

 

[posplayr]

Can anyone tell me what throttle bodies I have and what mods I would need to make to them to use in a MS Efi conversion on my gs1000. I am thinking about doing this instead of boring out my vm26's to 29.5. Also been thinking this over a set of smoothbores.

Its going on a race bike so I think the tuning might be easier.

Also has anyone done an efi conversion on a total loss electric system. My bike is total loss. I know pro stock bikes now are efi so i think its possible, but i am doing this on a budget so no big $$$$ will be spent.

It cant be too dificult to accomplish this, just need to pick some brains and thinktank it and show these ole dinosaurs bike still can run!!!!

thanks to anyhelp
Matt

Anybody can be a genius if you master the search.









http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=202848&highlight=EFI

 

[hotrods316]

yes, read that thread. it has recently stalled out due to other circumstances, i hope to do an easier system so that does not happen to this project once I commit to the conversion. Hopefully through member interaction and discussion we can put together the necessary parts and pieces to make this conversion easy for the masses of members on here who would like to do something like this.

i am willing and looking for help from guys like artu and katman and the others who have done this. i have messaged 1000g and he gave me a brief list of necessary items. will post it here.

I have searched the forums tirelessly and read all that has been posted on the subject of efi conversions. I have posted a new thread with direct intentions of including the parts that I have and am inquiring about the necessary mods to make to them in order for better functionality.

I would feel that an online forum community would embrace and help fellow members who are more than willing to help fellow members. unfortunately it seems this place has changed in certain aspects, and this was one of my last places of refuge in regards to good cheerful members helping each other out. I have been helped many times with free parts and advice from members and have offered the same to other members.

Thanks to anyone who has any helpful information.

matt

 

[ArttuH]

Hi,

I'm glad to provide help. However, I'm not going to try to provide ready list of required parts and complete instructions. Over the years I have seen that everyone wants to do things on their own way so that would be wasted effort. But feel free to ask anything what you want to know. If you tell your requirements for some specific part I can probably give some advice for selection.

No idea about those throttle bodies. You can take a look on this link and see if you can find them:
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=6627
Most likely you need to modify spacing to make them fit on the head. And the secondary throttle blades should be removed as well. The best approach is just to get your hands dirty and see what needs to be done. If it looks difficult a good option is to get another more easily adaptable set.

Are you talking about drag racing or something else? For drag racing a total loss electric system should be quite easy. Just use large enough battery (10-15Ah should be fine) and charge it between runs. Any longer duration racing might be a bit challenging. The biggest current consumer will be the fuel pump so one possibility is to use a mechanical pump. Then EFI wouldn't consume much more current than a carb engine.

I can provide the crank trigger set if you want to do ignition control. And maybe some other components too.

 

[hotrods316]

sweet thanks artu., yea i can read your thread, dont need you to repost every step in my thread. just want to put some more info out there for other guys thinking about this.

yea i have been doing the research on the efi swap and it seems straight forward enough.

I thought these TBs were from a 1000 Triumph sportbike. I do need to respace and remove the secondary throttle blades. looks to have a tps prewired into the TBs. Also something else prewired, not sure. Also the secondary blades are on a servo, maybe electronic choke??

The bike is a 1000cc dragbike. I also do the OHio Mile speed racing so the battery was the issue, maybe 5 minutes of total run time. Was going to do a li-ion battery pack and extra battery for start. Running dyna2000 so only fuel for the MS at first, but would like to possibly switch to MS for fuel and ignition later.

I am trying to decide how to deal with the MAP sensor as I think a turbo or blower in the future would be neat, at that point its just wiring that into the plenum, but with velocity stacks on the efi how would i deal with that.

and yes any ideas on fuel pump,i know most guys worry about amps on the stock charging system but with the total loss i have to be sure. Mechanical would be cool, any ideas...

I would like to be able to get 30mins of run time before a recharge as this will allow me to ride to my local bike night and then back without a full recharge. this is a shop bike so i want to ride it around and show off what we do in the shop.

and yes i will take you up on any parts and advice you can offer. thanks a bunch!!!
matt morgan

 

[ArttuH]

Yes, there seems to be a servo for the secondary blades. The manufacturers like to claim that the secondary blades are used to improve low end torque but I think this is more marketing jargon than truth. The main purpose of the secondaries is to soften throttle response and help passing noise and emission regulations.
Btw, is there any four cylinder 1000cc Triumph model?

30min run time with total loss, hmm... Well selected fuel pump will consume about 5A, rest of the EFI maybe 2-3A on average, then ignition maybe 5A and some very minimalistic lights maybe 3A. Total around 15A. So 30min should be possible with a 10-15Ah battery.

As you can see a mechanical fuel pump would improve situation significantly. Changing ignition to Megasquirt controlled and using some modern coils would drop average consumption too. For electric pumps I have done a simple controller that runs the pump at reduced voltage at light engine load and switches to full voltage when fuel demand increases. That drops average current draw by about 30-50%.

MAP sensor question is simple to answer. Just connect it to between the throttle blades and engine. That's correct measurement point for both normally aspirated and supercharged engines.

 

[hotrods316]

arttuH,

Thanks for the help, I am not much of an electronic genius so the amp help is greatly appreciated. Yea i would think I can run my bike for 1 hour without a recharge with my dyna and carbs. so hopefully 30 min with the efi will be possible.

And yes the secondary blade is servo controlled. these came in a big triumph parts bike so I assumed it was a triumph injector, but yea the daytona was a 3cylinder, who knows what these are, i will do some more diggin around to find out. But I obviously dont care about emissions or anything so the secondarys will be removed, i need top end power.

And yes, i may take you up on another controller if I find that while on the street i need less fuel and use too much amperages.

Awesome on the map sensor, makes it easy, and to make it even easier it might be prewired with one where you describe.

I did a lot of efi research last night on some car forums and it seems like a walbro 255 is the pump of choice. But i started looking into methanol efi and now I might be opening a can of worms, but a blown methanol zook might just be the ticket. any experience on methanol with your turbo efi???

I can do mechanical fuel injection in my sleep but the efi has me worried about injectors and pumps corroding from the MeOH.

oh sunshine come around and save me from myself and these hairbrained ideas...

 

[ArttuH]

Walbro 255lph pump is a good choice though a bit overkill for a NA bike engine. I have one on my bike and it takes about 8A at full voltage. The pump controller drops that to around 4A when full flow isn't needed. I'm not sure how well Walbros stand methanol. Probably fine for some time but who knows how long.

One quite good pump choice is a Mallory 4060FI: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/maa-4060fi/overview/
(Damn that price has climbed during the years...)
It can supply enough fuel for about 300hp on gasoline and it takes only about 5A. But it isn't the best choice for continuous street use. Mine ate the motor brushes within 10k miles. There are also methanol compatible gaskets available for it.

I don't have any first hand experience with methanol, just some with E85. In that sense there isn't much difference between EFI and mechanical injection. You just need fuel system components that can stand methanol. Most of the modern injectors are methanol compatible. Pumps and pressure regulators might be a bit more tricky. Many of them aren't specified for alcohols but they still may work just fine. But I would recommend to begin with gasoline. It might be less fun to troubleshoot corrosion problems at the same time when you are just learning the EFI system.

 

[hotrods316]

yes very good points arttu. thanks a bunch. i think i would do the efi first then play with other things, would hate to have an efi bike that doenst run or worse blows up first time riding it.
I will do some more research and see what kind of fuel injection stuff is available and how it will work in my bike. Will see what kind of mechanical pump I can rig up to a pulley and belt off my starter side. and heck may just do away with the E part and stick to fixed orifice jets/nozzles and make a mechanical fuel injection using the EFI throttle bodies. i know there are hilborn injection available as a kit but thats just way too much $$$$.

Will ask some of my car buddies about doing this setup. thanks again for your help and ADvice.

if anyone else has done something similar please chime in, i know other the last 30 years some wild gs motors have been raced, got to pick the old brains before it all dies off. at 27 i hate to think of what the auto/bike hobby will be like in 30 years (if it still exists...)

matt

 

[coombehouse]

Hi
I have successfully fitted gsxr600 k1 bodies to my bike- what you guys call a gs1100 katana. I got a lot of help from Arttu with the electrical details but its not a particularly difficult job. Hardest part is getting the ignition pickup right as it provides the signals for the injection also. I would forget using the TB's you have as they look like they are cast in pairs & may be difficult to respace. Please bear in mind you will need access to some metalworking machinery, maybe some design ability & a good mechanical engineering background to do the job properly & make it look like a factory mod & also keep it safe to ride. If that's you then go for it- its not rocket science & there is plenty of info out there. If however your bike building experience is limited then I suspect you might not be happy with the end results in which case the carb option would be the way to go.
Please don't think I am being patronising as I am not. I just don't want to read about another failed project & another disillusioned biker who might take up golf or something instead.
Nick

 

[hotrods316]

hi coombehouse,
thanks for chiming in on the subject. and no dont worry i didnt take your post as anything but helpful. i too have read many a thread about a fail project and the person becoming disinterested in bikes. i like to tinker and I have been trying to figure out this efi for a while, had i know people have done this swap on very elaborate bikes before (artu and blower) i wouldnt have thought it to be such a novel idea like i had. i am familiar with the megasquirt system being used on automotive racing application but the bikes are new to me.

I have an entire machine shop and fabrication shop at my disposal, i just have to be motivated enough to walk 100 yards and flip the lights on. Its more of the electronic signalling that is of concern to me. Also which parts to buy for longevity and reliability. i hate to buy something, let alone twice!!!! lol. So i am looking for advice on what pumps are overkill and which are junk.

And I wish that i could take up a different hobby but for some reason when i get away from the shop i get more wild ideas of neat things to do.And i come back to work and have a go at it.

And yes I will take at harder look at the TB's and make sure that they can be respaced easily and modified to work how i need them to work. I know i have some work to do to make them work, heck i dont even know what the injectors flow, might not be enough for my engine build, who knows!!! And yes I think if I do the ignition control by MS i will just buy the wheel from ARttu and use it, Is the MS better for the iggy than my dyna 2000? I really enjoy the added performance and features of the dyna now, but with the efi it may not be so... anythoughts...

Thanks again
Matt

 

[coombehouse]

Hey Matt
Sounds like you & I are very similar - suckers for anything with wheels & an engine. From what you say about your equipment you will have no problem with this mod. I used Gsxr 600 TB's as I knew they would fit but I would have liked to try 750y to k3 TB's as they are 40mm against the 38mm on the 600. Injectors are supposed to be all the same for 600 to 1000 & maybe busa so they will flow enough for an old aircooled motor. I think the Microsquirt will suit you better than the dyna as you can set the firing point well retarded when cranking for easier starting. This is a problem I have always had & now it fires at TDC for starting. The other bonus is with TB's you get a nice light throttle unlike with flatslides. My old wrists just can't cope anymore. This was 1 of the main reasons I did the mod. For a fuel pump I just bought a generic Bosch copy off eBay & use Arttu's controller. Seems fine. Still use a fuel pressure reg though set at 45psi.
Will provide some more info if you need it.
Nick

 

[ArttuH]

In my opinion only valid reason to install mechanical injection is that you are going to use nitro as fuel

For the throttle bodies it's good to keep in mind that these bike throttle body sets are sold on Ebay and elsewhere for very reasonable money. So there isn't much point to put huge effort to make a less suitable set to fit.

The Dyna 2000 will work as well with EFI as it works with carbs. With MS controlled ignition you will get much more options for spark timing control. And you will get possibility to use wider selection of coils for hotter spark.

 

[hotrods316]

arttyh,
yes i feel the mechanical would have an advantage when using the nitro. but i dont plan on going 100% stanky. We have had good results in our dragster with 33%, this is still consider a light load in the fuel world. Also at 33% the stoich is pretty spot on to a pure MeOH tune. So if the EFI will flow enough for MeOH it should be fine to this percent.

And I think I might light some of the extra features available within the tuning software of MS to change the fuel flow with a keystroke, instead of trying to using mechanical means of leaning out the motor, along with RPM control. It really depends on the price of a simple mech VS efi system, I am conferring with the minds that tune nitro motors about a simple cheap effective mech system for the bike.

the big hurdle is mech is the fuel pump, it should be mechanical pump so I need some advice on anyone that has put an external belt system on one of these motors, maybe blower can chime in...

and i think i would put the dyna up for sale to fund the MS purchase if I go that way. dont see a need to keep both around.

 

[ArttuH]

What I was trying to hint was that when compared to EFI the only benefit with mechanical injection is capability for huge fuel flow values. On all other aspects the EFI is clearly superior.

I have to admit that my knowledge about mechanical injection systems is mainly theoretical. I have done just some wrenching with a nitro twin bike. But as far as I know even in the best case adjustability of a mechanical system is quite crude, especially at partial throttle. There is no acceleration enrichment, no air temperature compensation and so on. For tuning you need to play with jets, pump drive ratio, barrel valve selection etc. And still tuning is more or less compromise since most of the tuning measures will affect to much wider area than needed.

I think the easiest place for the pump drive is from the ignitor end of the crank. You will need just an extension shaft in place of the ignition trigger and maybe some support bearing. Back in the days drag racers were using distributor magneto systems on these engines. Maybe you can find details about these for inspiration.

 

[Blower]

arttyh,
yes i feel the mechanical would have an advantage when using the nitro. but i dont plan on going 100% stanky. We have had good results in our dragster with 33%, this is still consider a light load in the fuel world. Also at 33% the stoich is pretty spot on to a pure MeOH tune. So if the EFI will flow enough for MeOH it should be fine to this percent.

And I think I might light some of the extra features available within the tuning software of MS to change the fuel flow with a keystroke, instead of trying to using mechanical means of leaning out the motor, along with RPM control. It really depends on the price of a simple mech VS efi system, I am conferring with the minds that tune nitro motors about a simple cheap effective mech system for the bike.

the big hurdle is mech is the fuel pump, it should be mechanical pump so I need some advice on anyone that has put an external belt system on one of these motors, maybe blower can chime in...

and i think i would put the dyna up for sale to fund the MS purchase if I go that way. dont see a need to keep both around.

Here are the drawings from the crankshaft extension and support bearing housing what I have in my bike:

 

[hotrods316]

yes, the mechanical can flow huge volumes of fuel. and the tuning is definately user involved. much of the racers have all the data acquisition that is required for efi but still rely on the mech. injection. I think mech would be cool and a simple system to layout, but the efi would be a more modern approach to solving the fuel issue.

the guy with nitro experience i am conferring with thought a efi system would be simple enough with the MS, he suggested a second injector row, 8 total, to get the big flow needed for a bigger boosted engine. he said something like a small electric pump to start the bike and then a mechanical pump to flow while running. not sure if this would be necessary, and two pumps would increase cost.

Also blower can you email me that pic in a bigger format, i downloaded it but it was in small size, my email is morgan.82@wright.edu

matt

ps. this is all secondary right now as i am trying to source parts to build a bulletproof engine to handle the load of nitro. which is slow going as of now, but hopefully it moves quicker here soon, talking to some gsr'ers about parts and local racers, but we just got more snow so the snails are still hibernating. lol

 

[ArttuH]

the guy with nitro experience i am conferring with thought a efi system would be simple enough with the MS, he suggested a second injector row, 8 total, to get the big flow needed for a bigger boosted engine. he said something like a small electric pump to start the bike and then a mechanical pump to flow while running. not sure if this would be necessary, and two pumps would increase cost.

You can get about 400-500hp from a 1000-1300cc engine with single set (4) of injectors. Above that it might be beneficial to add another set and run them staged. I wouldn't bother with dual pumps, especially if it is going to be mainly race bike. Mechanical pump alone needs just slightly longer cranking to start.

 

[geek]

I know a few people who have ditched the EFI for carbs on NA motors.

Just out curiosity, I pulled out a Gen 1 Busa and laid it next to an 1100 head. That looks very doable. Not a whole lot to the Gen 1 electronics. Seems like getting the crank sensor setup would be the hardest part.

For the GS, all the stock parts may be able to be used as-is. Ignition coils and all.

 

[hotrods316]

ok cool. so i like to run just one pump, keeps eveything sweet and simple. and yes i wont make more than 200 hp, it will be a 1200cc or less motor, and blown on nitro at most, so i think no more than 300hp at max, the bottom end would let loose way before that!

So arrtu I am thinking EFI would be the best best, just have to buy MS and fuel system. Would you suggest mechanical or electric for the pump?I can buy wholesale on automotive side of high performance, cant get the mechanical pumps though. It would be electric pumps. If you dont think the ebay walbro pump would be good, i have to check on aeromotive and the such brands. those are who i can buy...

and geek, yes i would run carbs but to put alky and nitro i need bigger flow (air and fuel both) and my carbs wont suffice. and i am not going to pay top dollar for some 33s for someone who paid mere pennies for them, not in the market to make someone rich on a single purchase. i ujnderstand making a buck on something but wont pay top dollar for something that isnt top dollar...

thanks matt