Electrical woes - low voltage, starting issues, etc.

[exzachtly1]

looking at the pictures, you have a lot of funk from a previous owner...the 20 amp fuse at headlights indicates they had trouble on that circuit and the larger fuse may have exacerbated them.

The motorcycle's original ground system had the thick cable attached to the engine, with two smaller ground wires (Black/white stripe) coming out of the harness -one at front one at rear-attached to the frame...(NOT the forks) The added one...I can't swear to it per your "L" without looking at the particular diagram but my gs650G has no such thing and it sure looks like "funk" to me....perhaps the PO chopped the other off at the harness.

The battery box is not the worst place to connect a (B/W) ground wire but connection should be rust free under a tight bolt...

You can disconnect one fuse at a time and see if that helps your large voltage drops...and thereby narrows down bad circuits.

Your regulator and stator are suspects. The old originals could blow SCR or diodes and allow power BACK into a stator. Which is pretty close to a dead short at the MAIN 15amp fuse, but not always.... Disconnect the regulator and see if that helps- the bike can run on a battery alone for a little while.

ABOVE ALL consult your wiring diagram and try to figure out what the Previous owner was "fixing" with the additional? wires and black tape. Black tape can be ok for ceertain purposes but good 3m black tape will not unravel so easily and is worth the xtra $...

A coloured wiring diagram can help. go here
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/images/gs650wiring.html

Thanks. I completely agree with your assessment. Some of this stuff just seems so weird and it's hard for me to know what was hacked and what is original, since I've only ever worked on this one bike (no frame of reference). This bike definitely seems to have had a fair share of hacking from previous owners. I am going to try all of your suggestions.... looking at the wiring diagram now it appears that the original frame grounds come out near the headlights and tail lights? I will look for those. I would like to eliminate that extra ground wire if I can - assuming the original grounds are still in tact and it's safe to do so?

New fuses are arriving today. I will try playing with those.

I'm still learning how to use the multi meter. My next goal will be to figure out how to actually trace where voltage is being lost. Electrical circuits confuse me but... the more I read the more it is setting in haha

 

[exzachtly1]

I checked the voltage at the fuse box. Finally found a video that helped me understand how to do that - I placed the negative lead on the negative battery terminal, then probed each end of all the fuses with the positive lead. I read 12.7v at the MAIN and POWER fuses - the ones that are supplied by the red wire feeding the fuse block. All of the other fuses were dead, no power. Now - what are the next steps to try to trace where I'm losing power? I feel like I'm missing something silly if they are all dead...?

 

[posplayr]

The only fuse that is HOT with key OFF is the Main.

You need to turn on the key to power all other circuits.

This is all self explanatory in the factory schematic.

 

[exzachtly1]

The only fuse that is HOT with key OFF is the Main.

You need to turn on the key to power all other circuits.

This is all self explanatory in the factory schematic.

OK - got it. with the key on i have voltage at all fuses. unfortunately not sure how to troubleshoot from here. I'll keep studying I guess and hopefully something will dawn on me. Thanks for all the help so far. Bummed because I have no idea how anything I did would have wound me up here... I thought I was only making improvements but I must have upset something that was just on the edge... maybe a short somewhere in a wire near the battery area, idk. Clearly something got moved or nudged just enough to kill it... the fact that I've seen this behavior once or twice before makes me feel like that is probably the case, it just kinda corrected itself before.

 

[posplayr]

Especially now that you say you have the fuse box hot, I would guess you lost a ground.

There are usually two ring lugs on the B/W connected to the harness. This is the backbone of the grounding for all devices connected to the harness.

You have to have at one of these B/W Ring lug at a common point on the metal side cover (under solenoid mounting bolt) or where your R/R is mounted to include:

• B/W Ring Lug
• Battery (-)
• R/R (-)
• FOR GOOD MEASURE Frame ground.

If you do this, that is a Single Point Ground (SPG). It also happens to be the picture I posted before.

The other B/W ring lug is typically going to the front of the battery box to pickup return currents from the battery box (if used as a ground).

 

[exzachtly1]

Cool, I will have some time to spend a little quality time tonight. I am going to try to locate all these ground wires and see if I can reproduce what you're saying. I may also take a video or something to show you how everything is set up on my bike once I have an understanding of exactly what I'm looking at. I think that will help the conversation, because it's pretty clear that a few things have been changed by the PO and they are tripping me up a bit.

If you do this, that is a Single Point Ground (SPG). It also happens to be the picture I posted before.

I see a link that you posted to (which I am studying), but I don't see any pictures in that thread or in this one? Pictures would definitely be helpful. But your descriptions are very good, I will do my best to follow them.

Finally, in your thread regarding the SPG approach - you mention using 14 AWG wire for the ground wires "all less than 1' using 14 AWG ground wire"
Is it okay to use 16 AWG? It's what I have on hand. Happy to go buy some 14 AWG if that is best but figured I would ask the question.

 

[posplayr]

https://www.thegsresources.com/_for...age-starting-issues-etc&p=2613241#post2613241

 

[exzachtly1]

https://www.thegsresources.com/_for...age-starting-issues-etc&p=2613241#post2613241

Sorry, I must be missing something or misunderstanding you. That is the post I was referring to but I don't see any photos, in that post or in the post you link to from there... something glitchy with forum images in my browser? idk...

here is what i see:



If i check the source in the browser devtools I can see there is an <img> tag there pointing to:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/picture.php?albumid=1998&pictureid=10607

But that returns a 1x1 pixel image...

Edit: is it possible that the album you are linking to is some kind of private album I don't have permissions to see? Do I need to be your friend or something?

 

[posplayr]

Must be your browser. I logged out and see everything Win7 chrome.

 

[exzachtly1]

Must be your browser. I logged out and see everything Win7 chrome.

Damn, I've tried firefox, chrome, edge, and internet explorer on two different computers and also on my phone, I don't see images on any of them (logged our or logged in).

Try an incognito window without being logged in? Maybe they are cached for you somehow?

Can anyone else confirm whether they see images in that post? It sure would be helpful to be able to see these

 

[roeme]

Damn, I've tried firefox, chrome, edge, and internet explorer on two different computers and also on my phone, I don't see images on any of them (logged our or logged in).

Try an incognito window without being logged in? Maybe they are cached for you somehow?

Can anyone else confirm whether they see images in that post? It sure would be helpful to be able to see these

Try accessing the forum through "https://" or plain "http://". Its one of the many warts of this here site.

Btw, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to "rewire" your bike to an SPG layout if you can't get the regular circuit layout (as per the manual) to work...I generally follow the principle of "stock first, mod later".

 

[exzachtly1]

Try accessing the forum through "https://" or plain "http://". Its one of the many warts of this here site.

Btw, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to "rewire" your bike to an SPG layout if you can't get the regular circuit layout (as per the manual) to work...I generally follow the principle of "stock first, mod later".

No luck for me still... tried switching between http / https, tried incognito windows, clearing all cache etc. etc... Is posplayer on your friends list? That's my only theory right now as to why I can't see them.

And re: the rewire, yes, I agree with you. I would like to try to make it work in the stock setup if I can figure it out, then rewire. I want to fully understand it. Problem is I think the PO already modified it from stock so I have some work to do to figure out exactly what they changed first... I think posting a video later for you guys to see will help. I have got to be missing something stupid.

 

[posplayr]

As I mentioned grounding was never a strong suite with the GS engineers which over the years has continued to exacerbate electrical problems. Even a perfect stock configuration is a problem waiting to happen, but then I'm simply repeating myself.

2 of 4 of the wires in SPG is typical stock configuration (#1 B/W ring lug and #2 R/R(-) as I recall this is your extended wire ). The #3 wire bat(-) has been an accepted modification here at GSR for going on 15 years (I did not invent it), and finally the ground is a belt and braces to capture all #4 ground return paths.

Without #1 and #2 you bike will not charge so the stock bike has to have the same.
Without #3 and typical corrosion the bikes are known to undercharge.

Without #4 you will most probably not notice the difference except is certain situations where you are using frame ground to return current to the R/R(-) (e.g. Dyna S or horns).

The SPG as described in my link simply puts you in the best position possible for continued charging performance in the presence of inevitable corrosion.

 

[exzachtly1]

As I mentioned grounding was never a strong suite with the GS engineers which over the years has continued to exacerbate electrical problems. Even a perfect stock configuration is a problem waiting to happen, but then I'm simply repeating myself.

2 of 4 of the wires in SPG is typical stock configuration (#1 B/W ring lug and #2 R/R(-) as I recall this is your extended wire ). The #3 wire bat(-) has been an accepted modification here at GSR for going on 15 years (I did not invent it), and finally the ground is a belt and braces to capture all #4 ground return paths.

Without #1 and #2 you bike will not charge so the stock bike has to have the same.
Without #3 and typical corrosion the bikes are known to undercharge.

Without #4 you will most probably not notice the difference except is certain situations where you are using frame ground to return current to the R/R(-) (e.g. Dyna S or horns).

The SPG as described in my link simply puts you in the best position possible for continued charging performance in the presence of inevitable corrosion.

Thanks again. To be clear I am totally on board with going to this configuration. But I would also like to understand where the weak link is in my current situation and what I might have done to mess things up! Since I can't seem to see your photos I've created a video (gulp...) to walk you through the current situation. I think that will clarify things. I tried to explain what I think you're trying to tell me to do with the SPG setup - please tell me if I have it totally wrong. I really wish I could see your pictures because I think that would put the missing pieces together.

Because I am new to all of this I get tripped up on terminology too so forgive me if I get something wrong... a few things I am currently tripped up on:

1. When you say "solenoid" do you mean the starter relay, attached to the right side of the battery box on my bike?
2. You also mentioned "metal side cover" in relation to the solenoid - "metal side cover (under solenoid mounting bolt) " - I'm not sure where you mean

I'm going to go back through everything now that I can see your photos and in the meantime here's the video:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/G6rKegHuo8Gh3wS88

Let me know if there is anything else I can show and... keep in mind I recorded this before I could see your pictures

 

[posplayr]

The main pictures that are the subject of this thread are in one of my albums hosted on GSR.


https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/album.php?albumid=1998

 

[exzachtly1]

Progress... I moved all the grounds to the point at the bottom of the battery box for now. I have power to everything now, and slightly higher voltage at the instrument cluster bulb (~10v now vs ~7v before)... and it seems like things are a little brighter.

That rear harness ground was definitely at fault, I think. That was the one thing I really changed just now. And it would make sense as to why "wiggling" the battery previously would have an effect.

The only thing is that she won't crank now. Starter button does nothing... still have to go get that battery tested (after work tomorrow). Back to the wiring diagrams I guess and then when I figure out why it wont crank... relocate everything to the recommended SPG setup. Feeling a little better now

Edit: It does crank if I jump the old (now disconnected) piece of ground wire coming off the starter relay mounting bolt to the negative terminal on the battery. I guess that still needs to be grounded... but why does that work, when the old setup did not? A little confused but it seems if I run a new length of ground wire from the starter solenoid to the common ground point I should be good. It's getting dark so I will try this tomorrow I think. To clarify exactly what I did... on the back of the bike I only see one ground coming out of the harness.... this was going to the starter relay mounting bolt via a bullet connector (as seen in video). I simply disconnected that, and ran a new length from the harness to the common ground point. This gave me my lights back but no crank. The ground wire that's now just hanging there seems to be required for the starter relay. Like I said... back to the diagrams but mostly just placing my notes here for future reference.

Edit 2: What I think I did...

Not sure how that ground could be bad. I'll need to look at it closer, maybe pull the battery box. But right now I'm sure I can make things work if I just run one more ground wire from the starter relay wire to the common ground point... Just confused because I don't see this mentioned in the notes about the SPG setup. Am I missing a ground somewhere on this side of the bike? Should there be another one coming out of the harness somewhere? posplayer's link says:

#4: Connects to the (B/W) harness negative ring lugs (typically the one attached at the solenoid mounting bolt). You can leave the other harness ground ring lug (B/W) where it normally is picking up the battery box ground.

I only have one... at least that I've found so far :/

 

[exzachtly1]

Question - is the starter relay supposed to ground directly through the battery box via the bolt it's connected to? There is no additional ground wire here, right?

And then the lead from the harness that ties into it is supposed to use that same ground?

If so - then is my assessment that the bottom red circle is a "dead" ground for some reason? Battery box not making good contact to the frame or something? I will have to really poke at that and test it with my multimeter but I just want to make sure I have an accurate understanding about how the starter relay is supposed to ground!

 

[Gorminrider]

THIS? is your main ground cable to the battery? (two skinny B/W wires) NO! it's supposed to be a heavy cable connected to an engine bolt to handle the starting motor. I'm suprised it doesn't catch fire.... Likewise, your positive cable looks to be light gauge, if the red wire with an eye shown

 

[Gorminrider]

The coloured diagram is...not so clear as the one from the shop manual...which (in my manual anyways) has other diagrams for routing that show connections too..as in, the starting relay grounding to battery box....

 

[exzachtly1]

THIS? is your main ground cable to the battery? (two skinny B/W wires) NO! it's supposed to be a heavy cable connected to an engine bolt to handle the starting motor. I'm suprised it doesn't catch fire.... Likewise, your positive cable looks to be light gauge, if the red wire with an eye shown

Hey sorry if I mis-communicated something there! haha - no - I definitely have the heavy cable running to the engine bolt. That's all good!! I think the photo is just showing a bad perspective. Did you check my video? you can see it better there. I have the thick cable, and I just taped that extra thin one that was soldered in out of the way while I sort all the grounds out the way they SHOULD be. That skinny wire will probably be removed.

And re: the red wire from the fuse box - that is a new wire but I used the same gauge that was on there. 16 AWG I believe. Should it be thicker? The wire it is connecting to going into the fuse box looks like it might be a little heavier, maybe 14 AWG.

The coloured diagram is...not so clear as the one from the shop manual...which (in my manual anyways) has other diagrams for routing that show connections too..as in, the starting relay grounding to battery box....

View attachment 61345

Ah thank you! I looked at this page in my manual before, didn't think to look there again for this. Right - so that starter relay ground must be my bad ground point - it would explain everything. That little b/w wire that was running to the TOP of the starter relay is the main ground on the back of the bike from the harness (all the lights and stuff) - and when it is connected there, nothing works. Now I've moved that ground wire to a good ground, and I have everything EXCEPT my starter relay working! So I need to take a closer look at the "starter relay ground" in that picture. And if I can't fix that then ground it somewhere else. It also coincides with the behavior I saw a couple times before where sometimes a slight wiggle while installing the battery would bring power back.