Engine Paint - PJ1, VHT, or POR 15?

[mpls-ugly]

PJ1 makes a good product. Wrinkle finis is slick and helps you shed a little more heat.

 

[Nessism]

Yup, old thread here but I wanted to give a little update on the POR-15 silver Engine Enamel used during my 1000S restoration.

In a nutshell, the silver paint is taking on a burned gold/brown cast after only 150 miles. Talked to POR-15 about this and they said I should have applied a coat of regular POR-15 paint as a primer coat and then the Engine Enamel. When asked why they don’t mention this detail in the Engine Enamel instruction sheets, or on the website, the tech rep didn’t have an answer, he only said that their engine painting kits contain both paints so that is what they recommend. Needless to say I’m not too happy about POR-15’s response, nor do I believe them; regardless of the primer coat, the Engine Enamel can’t take the engine heat without burning and changing color.

Pete received the good information from the Ausi POR-15 guys when they said the paint couldn’t take the heat. Wish I knew this before painting my engine and finishing the bike since now I need to do a repaint of some sort.

 

[almarconi]

VHT or Duplicolor are both good products.

 

[Nessism]

VHT or Duplicolor are both good products.

I painted a cylinder head with VHT Aluminum High Temperature paint last night. It sprays out nicely and looks good, although the color of the stock engine is more silver and brighter.

 

[spyug]

Just a reminder guys. The VHT does needs a heat curing to get tough enough to withstand gas. I was hoping to heat cure mine by running the engine but during the mammoth ordeal to get the engine to fire I spilled a lot of gas and a bit of ether on the block and needless to say it ruined the paint.

Once I get the bike on the road I will repaint to fix the problem and she'll look purty agin.....or so I hope.

Cheers,
spyug

 

[Guest]

Nessism, that's a real bummer and sorry to hear it didn't work out. I was hoping to find out I didn't need the high heat paint after all...

When I discussed the engine enamel with the Aussie guy we didn't go into details so not sure about the primer coat, but he certainly didn't mention it specifically and I didn't see that anywhere either.

Are you going to redo it with VHT at some point?

 

[sparki]

just so you know... the pj1 silver engine paint is just as bad for the old air cooled motors. heard of a few instances where it was used in the UK and motors have had to be re-painted after getting a yellow/gold tint

 

[Einstein]

I'm looking to paint my engine, with something long lasting that won't discolour..
Also need it to be as close a match to the original finish as possible.

Reading this thread, it appears the main contenders are discolouring..

I tried a VHT Aluminium paint from Halfords, and it looks garbage, so that's coming back off... I think it needs to be more silver than aluminium.
Also, the VHT paint is a very matt finish, so I reckon it is going to have to be engine enamel..

Now I just need to find a brand that looks right, and lasts.


John

 

[eric_banks32]

What about powdercoating? I had a kz1000 dragbike motor powdercoated. Looks awsome but its still on the stand and haven't touched it in months so i don't know how it will hold up.

 

[Nessism]

Glad this thread came back up, since I've got a little crow to eat. Ordered some VHT Aluminum engine paint from Caswell Plating and the cans looks different from my last purchase and more importantly, the color looks brighter than the last can I bought from a local store. This different batch is a good match for the OE Suzuki paint. I ordered two cans and both are the same; nice bright OE looking finish. Not sure how well rattle can paint is going to hold up compared to a catalized engine paint but fingers crossed.

 

[Shin-Ken 1074]

Wow! That is a very close OEM looking colour Ed, thanks for the pics. What sort of prep did you have to do to the cases for the VHT Aluminium paint? Cheers.

 

[Guest]

i've researched this topic before but never got a satisfying conclusive info for a paint that would not yellow/brown and would be durable enough to take on the daily road grime and regular washing.

on the engine covers i used por15 clear (glisten pc and all the prep products) and while the clear holds on well the alu covers have changed apperance in the same way they would have if left exposed to elements (they appear coroded underneath the clear...).

what i figured would last the longest on the engine would be to have the cases, jugs, head, bead blasted and left at that. when washing you can use a "metal brightener" to restore the shine. If done properly bead blasting "closes" the alu surface nicely so the dirt doesn't stick that well in the first place.

i *think* the problem with all the paints mentioned in this thread (correct me if i'm wrong!) is that neither is made for application straight on ALUMINIUM and some dont mention alu as a suitable base at all. and if you use a primer, well, there's no primer that can take the heat that the air cooled engine produces, at least at the spark-plugs area, so that's not that much help.
por15 metal prep and a brush on etch-primer liquid (called AP120 or something) is i would think the best priming method as it is not like a paint but like a solvent/cleaner that evaporates upon application so cant really burn from the engine heat (sorry for the lack of proper technical terms... )

sharpy's engine looks VERY sharp but i understand (from memory) that he lives in a dry climate and that that engine doesn't get much (if any?) wet road grime that bakes on the engine nor does he need to use pressure-washer or brush needed to take such grime off. as i said... if memory serves me right when i talked to sharpy about it

 

[Guest]

this is the engine after bead blasting. ignore the white speckles, they came off after a wash. unfortunately, against the advice of the person that blasted a number of engines and left them like that and due to the POR tech support that told me "you should be all right" i clearcoated the engine... the cases are still all right but the cylinders and the head have seriously yellowed, and around the sparkplugs the colour is straight brown...

see the pic below

 

[Guest]

I don't know how the colour matches up with standard, but POR 15 also have Brilliant Aluminium which is a high heat paint capable of 760 C (1400 F).

http://ppcco.com.au/paints.htm

Take note I have yet to paint with the Black Velvet so my opinion is probably useless until I've finished the bike and got it hot

Reading through the product details again though, it does say steel and doesn't mention aluminium anywhere.

Not sure if this will help anyone, but here's a cut of what the POR15 guy said in his emails:

(First to my original enquiry about engine enamel and UV stability)

Hi Peter,

The engine enamel is UV stable and could be used but you don't say whether it's water / air cooled. The fins on an air cooled would get too hot. Black Velvet (matt) would work better there. The New Glisten is UV stable but Glisten would be better.

(The for some clarification about stuff)

Hi Pete,

Yes it's Glisten PC and yes Bri Ali is the silver.

It all needs to be very clean and preferably Metal Ready used before
painting on the fins. The Aluminium should be polished and then the AP120 sprayed on and washed off not allowing it to dry (40% better adhesion) then buffed before using the Glisten PC.

 

[Guest]

can you guys see the pic???

i've had this prob before where i can see the pic from my side but others cant

 

[Guest]

i've been in touch with the PPG tech guys here in new zealand some time ago, and this was their response (and my email below).


The coating system to use is 719 polyetch primer followed by 579 Caprithane as a finish coat.
Technical data sheets are attached. Phone 09 573 1620 for pricing and availability,


From:
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 4:17 PM
To: (Mail) PMCNZ Customer Svc (AUK) [X]
Subject: Aluminium engine - what paint?

Hi
I am wondering what product you would recommend for painting (and prep) of an aluminium (internal combustion) engine on a motorbike. The engine is air cooled and exposed to elements.

_____________________________________________

Edit: Unfortunately the data sheets suggest that the paint is resistant to 110deg celsius only so i'm not sure that i'd fwork that well on the cylinders/head.

 

[Guest]

data sheets

data sheets

ENAMEL
Caprithane is a two pack acrylic polyurethane spraying
enamel, with the following features:​

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Fast drying​

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Hard, high gloss finish.​

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Excellent exterior durability, highly resistant to
yellowing and chalking.​

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Good UV resistance ? contains UV absorbers.​

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Resistant to a wide range of chemicals and cleaning
agents:
5% Aqueous Sodium Hydroxide ? no effect
5% Aqueous Hydrochloric Acid ? slight gloss loss,
no softening.​

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Excellent abrasion resistance.​

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Excellent heat resistance: 110oC continuous, 130oC
intermittent.​

The hardener is based on aliphatic polyisocyanate.


PRIMER

719 Polyetch is a top of the range, two-pack, anticorrosive
self-etching primer. It is based on vinyl /
butyral / phenolic resins and zinc tetroxy-chromate
pigment.
The catalyst contains phosphoric acid.​

Uses​

Gives excellent adhesion to galvanised steel and nonferrous
metals. Gives extra protection to ferrous metals
when used as the first primer coat.
Spray apply 70-100 microns Wet Film Thickness to
achieve 7-10 microns Dry Film Thickness.
Must be overcoated the same day ? no sanding.
Allow >1 hour before overcoating with epoxies, >20
minutes for other coatings.
Must use intermediate primer when overcoating with
single pack topcoats and 978:
238: 295/600/610
632: 262
CC22: 978
2K Polyurethanes may overcoat direct onto 719, or use
intermediate primer.
178: 279,579​

Colour Availability​

Yellow, Black

 

[Shin-Ken 1074]

Hi psyguy, no pics on my screen, pity. Thanks for the advice on clearcoating the block and the details regarding the product from PPG NZ. The frustration of owners trying to finding an engine paint to match the original colour and performance and how some of the current paint products fail to measure up is a mystery. I know the original engine paint is no longer available from Suzuki (it was for many years) but, you'd have to think there is an engine paint manufacturer out there somewhere that still makes a product that bike manufacturers use? Not all bikes have colour base painted engines so maybe there is a chance to track an aluminium engine paint down through some other OEM source like another auto engine maker, boat engine supplier, aircraft industry? O.K. maybe the outter casing product applied to things like a G.E. F404 axial turbine out of an F/A-18 might be a tad expensive for most of us but apart from that example there must be something we can use thats within reason?

 

[Guest]

...bloody 'puters... how's this?

 

[Guest]

i think that back in the day suzuki used the paint on engines for cosmetical purpose, to stop immediate corosion until the bikes got sold, rather than as a durable lasting finish.
i *think* only the lower case were painted, not the cylinders/head.
these days most engine parts are powdercoated or anodised or chromed or surfaced with high tech coatings such as HPC http://www.hpcoatings.co.nz/
so, there are ways to do it but the're not cheap...