Free R/R Schematic and Parts Description

[Boondocks]

In another thread, someone raised the question regarding the construction of a kit-type regulator rectifier "...if it's so easy, why hasn't someone else done it first?" The simple answer is that someone else has done it first. I posted the link to the schematic in the How much for your new reg thread on 11/5/05. The schematic and explanation are found on a website for Radical Electronics "We specialize in electronic kits and custom design. Our capabilities include power supply design, power audio amplifiers, analog design up to 200MHz and low speed digital design." The schematic and parts description are on the site free of charge, uncopyrighted and in the public domain.

The link to the small vreg.PDF file that describes the homebuilt R/R is at Small Engine Voltage Regulator. Anyone using this forum could have used this circuit, copied it, modified or upgraded components, customized it, etc. if they had the interest and ability to follow a simple circuit schematic. This is a shunt type regulator for permanent magnet alternators, and was tested and worked satisfactorily on a Suzuki GS400E.

There are interesting similarities with R/R plans being sold on this site. They both use two bridge rectifiers for full wave AC to DC conversion. All three phases are regulated, and are shunted to ground by SCR's. It uses a zener diode in a voltage reference circuit (vref). A voltage divider is used to monitor battery voltage and when compared to vref, the shunt SCR's turn on and off. I haven't seen the plan for sale, but I suspect that it uses a differential pair of transistors in the low current control circuit as does the free design. The free design also has user adjustable regulated voltage controlled by a potentiometer that adjusts the voltage required to start firing the gate of the SCR's.

Very simple - 9 resistors, one pair differential transistors, one zener diode, 3 SCR's,and 2 full wave bridge rectifiers. All in all, pretty much the same design without additonal bells and whistles. Free.

Anyone that would care to experiment with this free version could adjust the rating of components such as SCR's if desired.

 

[duaneage]

I remember Keith Winter's thread back then. I am surprised no one else picked up on that. Keith did it as a public service to the GSR. I argued that the economics currently favor using Honda RR's as they are reasonably cheap and easy to find. Keith had his working and could even adjust the voltage while he drove, for what that was worth.

 

[Boondocks]

I remember Keith Winter's thread back then. I am surprised no one else picked up on that. Keith did it as a public service to the GSR. I argued that the economics currently favor using Honda RR's as they are reasonably cheap and easy to find. Keith had his working and could even adjust the voltage while he drove, for what that was worth.

Yes, those so inclined could have been building their own R/R's in November. I suppose it would have had to be promoted to get any interest or attention.

I agree that it makes economic sense to buy a used Honda regulator. For those afraid of used ones, new Rick's R/R's are only $65 at Z1 Enterprises.

I also like Martin Bakalorz's approach in configuring the R/R in his thread which references the same open source vreg.pdf file that I posted the link last November.

 

[duaneage]

Maybe Keith and cberkley could form a partnership and develop something together? Of course with new plug-ins at 65 dollars and used honda's at 20-30 they would need to make a certain price point. And that was discussed at some length in the Keith thread last year.

If the only alternative was a 300 dollar regulator and a three week backorder at the dealer I would be on board with a Radio Shack Regulator. But in real terms it seems easier to pluck them from eBay from Hondas.

Just my opinion, don't hit me.

 

[Nerobro]

Anyone that would care to experiment with this free version could adjust the rating of components such as SCR's if desired.

why yes, yes you can. You can swap out lots of components in lots of designs ;-) Hmm... I wonder what a berkley reg would cost designed for 10amps?

Do keep in mind the specs for that vreg.pdf are a little concerning. Most concerning is the fact the circut is leaky. We can't afford to have our batterys discharging while the ignition is off.

 

[Boondocks]

Do keep in mind the specs for that vreg.pdf are a little concerning. Most concerning is the fact the circut is leaky. We can't afford to have our batterys discharging while the ignition is off.

I think you misunderstood the comment in the specs about the sense circuit being leaky. It must be active (hot) only when the ignition is turned on just like a Honda Shindengen R/R sense wire. When connected this way it is not leaky when the ignition is turned off. It would be leaky only if it were connected incorrectly, as would a Honda regulator.

 

[Nerobro]

the honda RR's are not leaky. Most replacement RR's do not have a sense wire and instead pull their vref from the positive output. The factory RR's are not leaky either.

 

[Boondocks]

the honda RR's are not leaky. Most replacement RR's do not have a sense wire and instead pull their vref from the positive output. The factory RR's are not leaky either.

Then why are the Honda sense wires always installed in an ignition on circuit? Have you personally verified that the Honda sense wire will not form a parasitic load if it is connected to the battery? What difference does it make anyway, if there is no current drain (leak) without a direct battery connection? It seems to me that this is a moot issue. Do you have some personal reason for disliking the connection of a sense wire to a ignition on circuit?

The factory RR's are not leaky. Maybe that's why they work so well.:-s:?

 

[Boondocks]

Honda VFR Club - Regulator Wires?

Honda VFR Club - Regulator Wires?

Nerobro, take a look at the second post in Regulator wires? for a very good explanation of the value of sense wires, and why a R/R with a sense wire will work better long term than one without.

The fourth post addresses the current drain issue of a Honda regulator that is not properly connected to an ignition on circuit.

Honda and other motorcycles can have R/R problems for essentially the same reasons. It is not exclusively a Suzuki problem.

 

[Planecrazy]

As I mentioned in both of the other threads I always like to replace any equipment with something that's at least "one level" better than before ... and with our Suzuki R/R's famous for failing it only seems logical that you'd want "cheap insurance" by replacing it with "the best" alternative you can. Cletus stated from the outset that he was out to design a "bulletproof" replacement with a few enhanced features, and that's where the value is (in my opinion).

If you want to use these "open source" plans as a starting point I say more power to you (pardon the pun), but I'd still modify them to be more robust than the problematic OEM. Buying used Honda R/R's on EBay is also a reasonable option, but I'd rather spend just a few more bucks and get a substantially improved product that also happens to be brand new.

My .02

Regards,

 

[Boondocks]

As I mentioned in both of the other threads I always like to replace any equipment with something that's at least "one level" better than before ... and with our Suzuki R/R's famous for failing it only seems logical that you'd want "cheap insurance" by replacing it with "the best" alternative you can. Cletus stated from the outset that he was out to design a "bulletproof" replacement with a few enhanced features, and that's where the value is (in my opinion).

If you want to use these "open source" plans as a starting point I say more power to you (pardon the pun), but I'd still modify them to be more robust than the problematic OEM. Buying used Honda R/R's on EBay is also a reasonable option, but I'd rather spend just a few more bucks and get a substantially improved product that also happens to be brand new.

My .02

Regards,

I have no need to replace anything. I'm the original owner of my bike with over 35,000 miles and it is using the original stator and Suzuki regulator rectifier. All specifications and charging rates are within expected factory tolerances. I have no vested interest in any outcome or product other than to have a rational approach to helping GS riders with their problems.

The reason that mine is still working when so many others have failed is because I have replaced bad batteries and detected and fixed corroded wiring connections before they caused the R/R to overheat and cook its internal components. Most R/R problems are caused by faulty wiring connections and/or batteries. Many socalled "failures" are not, but are only the symptoms of faulty wiring connections. New R/R's can be hooked up to the same faulty wiring circuit, and the same problems reappear. "Bad" R/R's can have corroded connections cleaned and then miraculously spring back to life with normal charging rates.

If I did have to replace my R/R, I would prefer to use an advanced design, and would not build a rudimentary heat-dumping shunt regulator design like that of Cletus and the (free) open source vreg.pdf. Before futzing with a do-it-yourself R/R, if I were to go with a shunt regulator I would replace it with a used Honda Shindengen R/R with a voltage sense wire.

 

[Planecrazy]

I have no need to replace anything. I'm the original owner of my bike with over 35,000 miles and it is using the original stator and Suzuki regulator rectifier. All specifications and charging rates are within expected factory tolerances. I have no vested interest in any outcome or product other than to have a rational approach to helping GS riders with their problems.

The reason that mine is still working when so many others have failed is because I have replaced bad batteries and detected and fixed corroded wiring connections before they caused the R/R to overheat and cook its internal components. Most R/R problems are caused by faulty wiring connections and/or batteries. Many socalled "failures" are not, but are only the symptoms of faulty wiring connections. New R/R's can be hooked up to the same faulty wiring circuit, and the same problems reappear. "Bad" R/R's can have corroded connections cleaned and then miraculously spring back to life with normal charging rates.

If I did have to replace my R/R, I would prefer to use an advanced design, and would not build a rudimentary heat-dumping shunt regulator design like that of Cletus and the (free) open source vreg.pdf. Before futzing with a do-it-yourself R/R, if I were to go with a shunt regulator I would replace it with a used Honda Shindengen R/R with a voltage sense wire.

I have never had a failure either, but as I mentioned before (in the other threads) there are reasons why a more flexible (and durable) custom R/R makes sense for my use, and as I also mentioned before I much prefer to use new components than take a chance on a used R/R from another bike. I know a lot of people have had good luck with the Honda R/R's, but they're still used components and they don't address the other issues (voltage adjustment and the ability to run the bikes even if the battery is drained for some reason)... On my full dress 1100G, for example, I'm running a variety of extra components, and if one of them should drain the battery I'd be out of luck and stranded with the OEM unit. Cletus' design (and I presume the open source R/R), on the other hand, can be built to save you from a date with a tow truck ... that's a very compelling argument for going "custom!"

Regards,

 

[bakalorz]

I have never had a failure either, but as I mentioned before (in the other threads) there are reasons why a more flexible (and durable) custom R/R makes sense for my use, and as I also mentioned before I much prefer to use new components than take a chance on a used R/R from another bike. I know a lot of people have had good luck with the Honda R/R's, but they're still used components and they don't address the other issues (voltage adjustment and the ability to run the bikes even if the battery is drained for some reason)... On my full dress 1100G, for example, I'm running a variety of extra components, and if one of them should drain the battery I'd be out of luck and stranded with the OEM unit. Cletus' design (and I presume the open source R/R), on the other hand, can be built to save you from a date with a tow truck ... that's a very compelling argument for going "custom!"

Regards,

You could wire a capacitor in parallel with a Honda (or Suzuki for that matter) OEM R/R just as easily.

But why.

It won't save you from getting stranded. You really weren't stranded without it either.

The cap certainly won't start your bike, which means you'll still need to get it jumped or push start it anyway.
Once you get it started, the cap will filter the pulsating DC coming from the R/R, so it will let it keep running.
But guess what; even a really crappy, drained battery will do that too.

As long as you keep it on the bike, the battery should be good enough to keep it running. Even if its shot.

 

[Planecrazy]

My experience with weak or dead batteries is that the bike would die at low idle speeds regardless, so to my way of thinking this (the larger capacitor) helps "hedge my bet," and because it's sealed inside the new R/R it's likely to last longer than an outboard cap would otherwise be.

As to your contention that I "was never really stranded to begin with," there are any number of stories from members through the years who rode with a dying battery until finally it gave out and the charging system was unable to put out enough spark to keep the bike running. The fact that there may have been other problems contributing must certainly be considered, but if one has the benefit of an overbuilt R/R the odds are in your favor ... it's just that simple.

I'll say it one last time and then leave you be ... if you are happy buying used parts that have an unknown history and unpredictable future that's just fine with me, but if you can build NEW and to your own spec (read: superior to stock) for the same money (and enjoy the experience as a bonus) than why not?

Regards,

 

[Guy]

If I did have to replace my R/R, I would prefer to use an advanced design, and would not build a rudimentary heat-dumping shunt regulator design like that of Cletus and the (free) open source vreg.pdf. Before futzing with a do-it-yourself R/R, if I were to go with a shunt regulator I would replace it with a used Honda Shindengen R/R with a voltage sense wire.

I have to agree. I've been following this and the other "sales" thread on R/R's with interest. I've made the honda mod to both my GS's with no problems. The idea of using a product with hardwired bridges and scr's, 1/4 watt resistors on veroboard, unpotted in a homemade case doesn't appeal to me at all. The honda design is well proven, cheap and a direct replacement, why complicate things? I don't mean to **** on anyone's parade, just my 2 cents.

 

[mixongw]

I have to agree. I've been following this and the other "sales" thread on R/R's with interest. I've made the honda mod to both my GS's with no problems. The idea of using a product with hardwired bridges and scr's, 1/4 watt resistors on veroboard, unpotted in a homemade case doesn't appeal to me at all. The honda design is well proven, cheap and a direct replacement, why complicate things? I don't mean to **** on anyone's parade, just my 2 cents.

Ditto. Exactly my viewpoint. Couldn't have said it better.

 

[duaneage]

I've actually worked for companies that manufacture electronic components so I know a little about testing adn making things.

Electronic assemblies need to be tested properly to be used in harsh environments. There are also different standards for military grade parts than civilian grade. Motorcycles are hot places where there is a lot of radiated heat and even caustic fumes. At a minimum electronics needs to be coated in lacquer to prevent moisture from attacking the parts. Ideally you should encapsulate the assembly in epoxy to immobilize it.

Any assembly needs to be tested for MTBF to insure it will not fail when you need it most. You need more than a snappy design, better parts with higher tolerances of some type, and a voltage adjustment. The device should be tested for heat ouptu, hi-potted for safety, and driven to failure to determine safe operating limits.

Do you know what the proper way to attach wires to an assembly is? What gauge is proper? What type of wire to use and insulation type is needed? What kind of solder are you planning to use on the connections? How much heat do you apply to the Diodes and SCR assemblies without damaging them? How do you prevent damage while building the unit?

Boondocks raised some critical points about building these RR's because it is a critical part. Getting up a head of steam about building a better RR than you could buy is one thing. Actually accomplishing it is another and when there is a suitable replacement available easily for a few dollars why take a chance.
BTW do you know how to read date codes on components? The parts you get may actually be very old and could have been improperly stored. Honda used the 6 wire type regulator on bikes made in the late 90's too. I would trust one of those SDG RR's anyday.

 

[Boondocks]

You could wire a capacitor in parallel with a Honda (or Suzuki for that matter) OEM R/R just as easily.

But why.

It won't save you from getting stranded. You really weren't stranded without it either.

The cap certainly won't start your bike, which means you'll still need to get it jumped or push start it anyway.
Once you get it started, the cap will filter the pulsating DC coming from the R/R, so it will let it keep running.
But guess what; even a really crappy, drained battery will do that too.

As long as you keep it on the bike, the battery should be good enough to keep it running. Even if its shot.

Exactly! I had the same thought but replying to this type of speculation and needless concern becomes onerous. Maybe the fact that no motorcyle manufacturer has ever added this type of capacitor to a battery ignition system for insurance against "stranding" should be a clue. Adding a capacitor is a solution in search of a problem.:-s

As I recall it was done because someone asked if they could run their bike without a battery. The capacitor was added so that theoretically a bike could run without a battery, smoothing the rectified DC pulses to prevent damage to electrical components requiring a smooth DC waveform. The real question is, why would anyone want to run the bike without a battery? Even a dead battery will smooth DC pulses better than the capacitor.

 

[ehra]

Maybe the fact that no motorcyle manufacturer has ever added this type of capacitor to a battery ignition system for insurance against "stranding" should be a clue. Adding a capacitor is a solution in search of a problem.

Wrong, check your FACTS, European and British bikes have used them for years.
I Have two 1970 Triumph 500's that have a large capacitor in the circuit to run with a battery failure or when you take off the lights, they even tell you how to set it up in the owners manual. Triumph and Nortons did that a lot when they built a model that may be run off road without the battery and lights. By the way they also have a single zener diode that can handle about 22 amps with stock giant heat sink mounted under the headlight, And sometimes the would melt the battery right in to the battery box.

Glenn

 

[Planecrazy]

I had the same thought but replying to this type of speculation and needless concern becomes onerous.

I'm actually amused at the level of devotion you guys are attaching to using old used parts. Duane's comments about component age are actually laughable, because he's comparing 10, 15, even 20+ year old used components to ANYTHING purchased today. As for "military spec," that's almost as funny, since quite often the ONLY difference between a military spec "anything" and it's civilian counterpart is the label on the box. Even "military spec" laptops (which are made by several well known manufacturers and contain the most sensitive parts you'll generally find on a battlefield) are often identical to consumer versions with the exception of being packaged in stronger more shock isolated cases!

In today's world it is EXTREMELY difficult to find even a cheap component that won't last at least a reasonably long time, and comparing those components to the ones made twenty years ago is a joke. Quality control in even the worst Asian knockoff shops is generally better than what was "cutting edge" back then.

Now, regarding assembly, Duane brings up several valid issues, including construction methods, assembly materials (wire, solder, etc.), and protection from the elements. I can honestly say that anything I've ever assembled (since I was a teen) that didn't immediately fail for some reason has NEVER failed due to assembly errors. Several people will attest to my curse as a perfectionist when it comes to solder joints, assembly, etc., and once the design is finalized I do indeed plan to seal it in epoxy, so weather shouldn't be a factor.

Really guys ... it's OK with me if you go with the Honda units ... I contemplated it myself recently, but I much prefer going the superior route and doing it myself with more flexibility and better components.

To each his own...

Regards,