Hagon shocks too stiff? (No, I'm just a noob)

[Joe Garfield]

I got a set of Hagon shocks from Dave Quinn. They're pretty uncomfortable on less than perfect roads - jarring, to put it lightly. Dave Quinn said he could change the springs to a lower spring rate, but commented that people find the softer springs unfavorable. The shocks I have match the Hagon specs, they weren't customized or anything. They spec the springs for 160-210lb riders and I'm at 180. Z1 notes on their site that Suzuki factory springs are 2 spring rate levels below what Hagon specs for my bike, so somewhere in the middle sounds right to me.

Has anyone had experience with lighter than stock springs from Hagon? What can I expect from softer springs - what is it that people don't like?

FWIW, the shocks sag about 1/2" under the weight of the bike, and another 1/2" with me on it.

Edit/Update:
I was actually bottoming out on the shocks. There is a rubber bump-stop on the main rod - if you slide it down, you can check it after you ride to see how much the shock is moving. It turns out I was using the whole range of the shock. I don't have much riding experience, and 99% has been on 2 Suzukis from 1982, so I admit I just had no idea what a good suspension felt like.

 

[tkent02]

My Hagons are bone shattering too. It's not the spring rate as the sag is about right, they are just WAY OVERDAMPED. I found out after I bought them that they use the same shock body for the 850G and 1100GK as they do for the lighter bikes, they may ride nice with a half ton of metal riding on them but on the lighter bikes like my 550 they suck big time. Dave talks a nice line before the sale, but afterwards you are on your own.

 

[Joe Garfield]

Yeah I'm not sure if I can do anything about the damping - supposedly this is the medium damping shock body (and it's an 1100g).

 

[Grimly]

Yeah I'm not sure if I can do anything about the damping - supposedly this is the medium damping shock body (and it's an 1100g).

I have a set of Hagons that need rebuilt - annoyingly, it's only because of a weeping seal on one of them. Hagon informed me they're not rebuildable, but I'll see about that. Reason I mention this, is that if what they tell me is wrong, there's then a way to modifiy your damping rate. Whether it can be done economically is another matter, if you're paying somebody else to do it.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

I got a set of Hagon shocks from Dave Quinn. They're pretty uncomfortable on less than perfect roads - jarring, to put it lightly. Dave Quinn said he could change the springs to a lower spring rate, but commented that people find the softer springs unfavorable. The shocks I have match the Hagon specs, they weren't customized or anything. They spec the springs for 160-210lb riders and I'm at 180. Z1 notes on their site that Suzuki factory springs are 2 spring rate levels below what Hagon specs for my bike, so somewhere in the middle sounds right to me.

Has anyone had experience with lighter than stock springs from Hagon? What can I expect from softer springs - what is it that people don't like?

FWIW, the shocks sag about 1/2" under the weight of the bike, and another 1/2" with me on it.

That sag sounds race tight. I think you'd prefer about 1.5" for country roads. Softer springs allow more movement, very good for streets and roads, not for race tracks. Performance type people want a tight hard race spring/shock rate.
Me, I find the Hagons are just right for my butt.

 

[Joe Garfield]

Good point Bill. They feel great on flats and in turns. Unfortunately I ride on real roads. Small bumps are OK but anything more seems like it's crushing internal organs. Other than sag I don't know how to tell if its damping or spring rate.

 

[Guest]

Small bumps are OK but anything more seems like it's crushing internal organs. Other than sag I don't know how to tell if its damping or spring rate.

If it is only a ride quality issue on sharp bumps then it is damping, unless your spring rates are so low that you are bottoming over the bigger bumps and that doesn't sound like it's the case.


Mark

 

[Buffalo Bill]

I recommend you get those softer springs he mentioned, they do have 3 spring load settings so you can tighten them up if or when you like.
I have mine set on 1 soft, and they are a bit harsher than the OEM shocks, but those had lost their dampening some time before I bought the bike.
The OEM springs had 5 spring load, and 5 dampening settings. I set mine at 4 and 4 as recommended in the manual for solo riding.

 

[Joe Garfield]

It's ride quality on anything including manhole covers, train crossings, abrupt elevation changes, and frost heaves. Because they are 'progressively wound' shocks, I wonder if I'm using just a little bit of the softer travel with the rest of the coils acting almost rigid? Maybe stiff damping makes more sense.

There are rubber bumpers on the inner rods - they are at the top shock mount but I'm going to slide them down to the shock body and go for a ride. Where they end up will give me an indication of how much shock travel I'm using. But it still seems like damping will limit shock travel on a ride, since most of the travel happens abruptly.

 

[RichDesmond]

Your sag numbers, if accurate*, indicate springs that are much too soft. Overall, your symptoms sounds like either bottoming or too much compression damping.

*I don't mean to sound insulting, sag is hard to measure correctly. You need to have at least 2 people, and preferably 3, to get good numbers.
If the spring rate on the rear is right you'll have 5-10mm of free sag and 30-35mm of total sag.

 

[Joe Garfield]

Holy crap, I'm bottoming out! I never would have guessed. A heavy throttle twist on a cold engine left only 1/2" of travel left, and a small man hole at 30mph used it all up.

 

[Joe Garfield]

So I tried playing with the spring pre-load - apparently rear 'shocks' work a lot different from front springs in terms of pre-load. The highest preload setting gave me the best feeling ride! The rear felt like it was a touch higher and the bike really rolled into turns better; shock absorption was 1000 times better and definitely not jarring, and I didn't use up the full range of travel. I then tried the middle setting and immediately didn't like it, and bottomed out in less than a minute riding around a parking lot.

Interstingly, on the highest pre-load setting I'm compressing the shocks a full inch just by sitting on it. This is using the position of the rubber bump stop to determine. Before I was using a tape measure - I don't know where I went wrong but maybe the way my weight was on the bike while I was trying to measure, or the angle or something... Anyway, this is the TOTAL OPPOSITE of what I was expecting!

Here are some pics of the rubber bump stop (Photobucket is messing with the rotation and I can't seem to fix it). I added some lines: red to show how much travel I've used, and green to show how much travel is left. If you have Hagon shocks and think they're stiff, it's worth playing with these bump stops to see what the shock is really doing. I was so surprised to be using up the whole range of travel, especially when it looked like the weight of the bike and me was hardly compressing the springs at rest.

 

[Buffalo Bill]

Man, you need a dope slap for giving us as-backwards info.

 

[Joe Garfield]

I don't know, Bill - the info was all right: I would consider a fully compressed shock to be 'too stiff'

I could hardly believe it myself. I tried like hell to see how much I could compress the shocks under my own weight and they seemed to not move at all. I sat on a new Honda CB1100 and the rear end sat down probably a couple of inches, and the Hagons definitely felt more firm (much less sag) than the 34yo Suzuki springs, yet those never seemed to bottom out (but they did wallow a lot). I admit I don't have a lot of experience - I'm almost embarrassed to think I was riding around with that much rear end movement and not realizing it, although I knew there was something I didn't quite like besides the abruptness over bumps.

Hopefully Dave will have a good idea of what spring to change to - I have 23kg/129lb springs and the next size is (26kg/129lb). I don't know how that all works out, but it would be nice to have a little preload adjustment left.

 

[Guest]

I could hardly believe it myself. I tried like hell to see how much I could compress the shocks under my own weight and they seemed to not move at all.

As Rich noted, measuring preload is at least a 2 man job. You simply can't sit on the bike in the proper position and then measure accurately to fine amounts.


Mark

 

[Joe Garfield]

Your sag numbers, if accurate*, indicate springs that are much too soft. Overall, your symptoms sounds like either bottoming or too much compression damping.

If the spring rate on the rear is right you'll have 5-10mm of free sag and 30-35mm of total sag.

I apparently missed this post, but thanks Rich, you nailed it!

Dave and I agree and he is ordering me stiffer springs.

 

[Joe Garfield]

... Dave talks a nice line before the sale, but afterwards you are on your own.

This couldn't be farther from my experience. He's been very communicative, helped me diagnose the problem, and is making sure we get things right.

 

[Charlie G]

This couldn't be farther from my experience. He's been very communicative, helped me diagnose the problem, and is making sure we get things right.

They were very helpful for me.