Help with Charging System

[Tenshots1]

Hi All,

So I have been messing with the charging system a bit on my stock 1980 GS550E (10K miles on it). I got a new battery about a year ago and everything seemed to work great until this week. There were 2 occasions where I went to start it after having it sit for a week or so and I barely got it to crank, then the ignition sound got weak like the battery was about dead. I ended up jump starting it on these occasions without issue.

Anyway, I started reading all of the information about the charge systems and looking through the phases, but felt pretty overwhelmed since I don't have much of a history doing electrical work. On top of that, when I started to test it, the results seemed like they did not match the phase sheets. Hopefully you guys could give me some more guidance based on the tests I ran:

Attached Multimeter to Battery: Read 12.04v with everything off. When I turned on just the lights, the voltage went down super slowly to about 12.02v. At idle, my voltage stayed right around 12.0v. When I revved up to 5000 rpms, the voltage was right around 12.70v.

Attached Multimeter between ground wire and negative terminal on battery: without anything on, the voltage read about 2.2v, which seemed like maybe it was a problem area.

Note that I do not have a trickle charger, but it looks like maybe i should invest in one.

From these tests, it kind of seems like the stator is not producing enough charge, and then maybe the R/R is allowing the battery to drain when it is not running. Does this sound right? Any other easy tests that can point me in the right direction?

Also, what are some affordable R/R and stators that you could recommned? (Hopefully something that can be easily purchased off Amazon etc).

Thanks all for your time!
GT

 

[posplayr]

You should read gs charging health and follow the directions to clean up the grounding and redo the quick test

the battery seems fine

 

[geol]

Your methodology is fine so far and you should clean up the grounds. Here is what I suggest:

1. battery! Charge the thing using a trickle charger. See what the battery reads. Should be about 12.5 VDC. If it doesn't use a small hydrometer to draw fluid from each of the cells in turn. If any of the balls fair to float, the cell is either dead or almost there. The hydrometer can be had at an auto parts store for less than $5 and looks like an eye dropper. It should come with a small piece of hose that fits into the cell on a small battery. If the battery fails, it should be replaced. You may still want to move on with testing.

2. If the battery was replaced or it was OK or if you just want to confirm, keep in mind that 12.7 VDC at 5K rpm isn't getting it done as far as charging the battery. It may be your regulator/rectifier is bad OR the stator is old and tired or both. Plenty of tips on both issues and neither is difficult to fix but does cost a bit if you buy a quality stator or R/R. If your bike has separate regulator and rectifier, buy a new modern combo unit. I would be glad to give you tips on doing the install, if they are needed.

To sum, at this point, your battery may be shot, your charging system mostly likely needs repair and your ground is questionable and should be fixed.

 

[posplayr]

Your methodology is fine so far and you should clean up the grounds. Here is what I suggest:

1. battery! Charge the thing using a trickle charger. See what the battery reads. Should be about 12.5 VDC. If it doesn't use a small hydrometer to draw fluid from each of the cells in turn. If any of the balls fair to float, the cell is either dead or almost there. The hydrometer can be had at an auto parts store for less than $5 and looks like an eye dropper. It should come with a small piece of hose that fits into the cell on a small battery. If the battery fails, it should be replaced. You may still want to move on with testing.

2. If the battery was replaced or it was OK or if you just want to confirm, keep in mind that 12.7 VDC at 5K rpm isn't getting it done as far as charging the battery. It may be your regulator/rectifier is bad OR the stator is old and tired or both. Plenty of tips on both issues and neither is difficult to fix but does cost a bit if you buy a quality stator or R/R. If your bike has separate regulator and rectifier, buy a new modern combo unit. I would be glad to give you tips on doing the install, if they are needed.

To sum, at this point, your battery may be shot, your charging system mostly likely needs repair and your ground is questionable and should be fixed.

Geol, Welcome aboard.

Have you ever heard of the Stator Pages?

We have something called a quick test and then for more in depth diagnosis a fault finding chart.


http://www.thegsresources.com/statorpapers3.php

http://www.thegsresources.com/statorpapers4.php

 

[geol]

I was offering help. If I was wrong somewhere, point it out. If not, why complain when I don't point someone to some pages someone wrote? I suspect I don't need permission to offer sound advice and if you find anything wrong with my comments, please let me know. Thanks

 

[posplayr]

I was offering help. If I was wrong somewhere, point it out. If not, why complain when I don't point someone to some pages someone wrote? I suspect I don't need permission to offer sound advice and if you find anything wrong with my comments, please let me know. Thanks

Sounds like you are challenging me to pick apart your post, when I was inviting you to join the GSR support system for diagnosing electrical problems.

While I'm sure you have been around the block, your general recommendations are just that "very general" and do not address many of the specific issues that most members here have learned about that are largely specific to GS electrical problems. Your off the cuff recommendations , would tend to dissuade the new reader from seeking out this GS specific information. In that regard you are doing a disservice.

I don't want you to go away mad, but rather just realize that there is an abundance of information accumulated in this forum that you may not be aware of.

 

[geol]

I didn't challenge you or anyone else. I offered help to someone looking for help. You basically told me to shut up unless I tell the guy to go the compiled wisdom. I guess unless you are the site owner, I would question your right to tell me to shut up. If you do own the site, I will not offer any more help. I did notice that there are a lot of folks with very high post counts that offer incorrect advice on a continuing basis and I seldom see anyone challenge them.

What I did say is that I ALWAYS welcome correction IF I am wrong. I doubt my suggestions were too general to be of use but that is just my opinion. I stand by the fact that what I suggested was correct. If there is some better way to resolve a technical issue, the guy can certainly do what makes the most sense. And as far as you running me off, again, if you are the site owner or something of that sort, you can certainly tell me to shut up and go away but if not, I really don't see you being the forum cop.

I have done a couple things that have not been great; first and foremost, I didn't have a bike listed in my signature. I was hopped on for that like I had committed a cardinal sin. The reaction was a bit over the top and I don't understand why folks feel the need to have the pack mentality. In fact, I feel bad that I didn't say anything when folks were savaging that poor kid with the brat bike and no exhaust. Geesh, if the kid wants to lose his hearing, his friends and PO his neighbors, that is his business. And the same group started piling on and on and on.

I see you have a bunch of links in your signature for electronic quick tests and the like. I believe I told the guy much the same thing and guess I stepped on your feelings as you put a whole link together saying what I told him in just a few lines. Most folks have no idea whether their battery is good or not and you would do well to read what I wrote and add some basic battery diagnosis to your write up. A battery can be marginal and if someone charges it, it will show the proper voltage for awhile and then the next day it will be down to 11VDC with the key off. I know there is a lot of info on this site and associated member sites and if someone took the time to put this into a table of contents it would be helpful. Quite frankly I never bothered looking at the links in your signature and by the way, this is my fourth GS. I have owned about 40 KZs, quite a few Yamahas and Hondas as well. I currently own two Hondas, four KZs but no Yamahas as I am not that big a fan of most of them due to their looks which don't fit my tastes.

 

[posplayr]

Your methodology is fine so far and you should clean up the grounds. Here is what I suggest:

1. battery! Charge the thing using a trickle charger. See what the battery reads. Should be about 12.5 VDC. If it doesn't use a small hydrometer to draw fluid from each of the cells in turn. If any of the balls fair to float, the cell is either dead or almost there. The hydrometer can be had at an auto parts store for less than $5 and looks like an eye dropper. It should come with a small piece of hose that fits into the cell on a small battery. If the battery fails, it should be replaced. You may still want to move on with testing.

2. If the battery was replaced or it was OK or if you just want to confirm, keep in mind that 12.7 VDC at 5K rpm isn't getting it done as far as charging the battery. It may be your regulator/rectifier is bad OR the stator is old and tired or both. Plenty of tips on both issues and neither is difficult to fix but does cost a bit if you buy a quality stator or R/R. If your bike has separate regulator and rectifier, buy a new modern combo unit. I would be glad to give you tips on doing the install, if they are needed.

To sum, at this point, your battery may be shot, your charging system mostly likely needs repair and your ground is questionable and should be fixed.

On your point 1.) above, you apparently did not realize that the OP was following what I assume is the Quick test steps 1.) and 2.) monitoring battery voltage with key off and key on and headlamp on. This is a battery test; read the diagnostic procedure. Had you been aware of this you would have perhaps realized that the first number quoted by the OP of 12.04V is probably a typo because with the key and headlamp on it has been demonstrated plenty of times that being above 12V will only occur with a good battery. So you conclusion that OP needs to investigate his battery is directing him into an area that is not even an issue.

On Point 2.) above, you seem to go on about R/R replacement which at this point in the diagnosis is premature, but also is strikingly absent of any mention of using a SERIES R/R. I only mention using Series R/R's about 1/2 the time becuase its is splattered over the website so much if someone started to read they will run into it. You are basically demonstrating a total unawareness of the popular R/R replacements.

Finally your conclusion: As stated above, there is nothing wrong with the battery, it is premature to assume either R/R or stator is at issue. And although you said to clean the grounds, there has been a long standing upgrade for more than 10 years as the GSR to run a ground wire direct from the R/R to the battery (-) to overcome the circuitous grounding on the GS's. And for something like the last 5 years I have gone beyond that to clarify an optimal configuration for grounding that involves a Single point ground (add a second wire). Normally once people implement the SPG, they have very low voltage drops on the negative side of the R/R (less than 0.05V). Compare this to the 2.2V ground drop reported by the OP. If the OP read the GS Charging health the high side conenctions in the fuse box and others are identified as contributing to further loss. This is all a repetitious diatribe because it is all already described in the link I identified. "GS Charging Health".

The real irony in this particular case is that I strongly suspect there is noth wrong with the battery, R/R or stator and only connections and SPG are really nessesary recommended pending doing those things and rerunning the Quick test.
.
Given the reported charging voltage was 12.7V if we add the 2.2V (from the ground loss) the OP would be at 14.9V which if anything is high. This indicates there is nothing wrong except dirty connections and poor grounding that the SPG would fix. Your conclusion gives no indications of this probability.

These were my conclusion reading you post the first time, and so you might feel that I had my feeling hurt, but in fact I was really trying to protect yours by not jumping all over your first post.

 

[Tenshots1]

On your point 1.) above, you apparently did not realize that the OP was following what I assume is the Quick test steps 1.) and 2.) monitoring battery voltage with key off and key on and headlamp on. This is a battery test; read the diagnostic procedure. Had you been aware of this you would have perhaps realized that the first number quoted by the OP of 12.04V is probably a typo because with the key and headlamp on it has been demonstrated plenty of times that being above 12V will only occur with a good battery. So you conclusion that OP needs to investigate his battery is directing him into an area that is not even an issue.

On Point 2.) above, you seem to go on about R/R replacement which at this point in the diagnosis is premature, but also is strikingly absent of any mention of using a SERIES R/R. I only mention using Series R/R's about 1/2 the time becuase its is splattered over the website so much if someone started to read they will run into it. You are basically demonstrating a total unawareness of the popular R/R replacements.

Finally your conclusion: As stated above, there is nothing wrong with the battery, it is premature to assume either R/R or stator is at issue. And although you said to clean the grounds, there has been a long standing upgrade for more than 10 years as the GSR to run a ground wire direct from the R/R to the battery (-) to overcome the circuitous grounding on the GS's. And for something like the last 5 years I have gone beyond that to clarify an optimal configuration for grounding that involves a Single point ground (add a second wire). Normally once people implement the SPG, they have very low voltage drops on the negative side of the R/R (less than 0.05V). Compare this to the 2.2V ground drop reported by the OP. If the OP read the GS Charging health the high side conenctions in the fuse box and others are identified as contributing to further loss. This is all a repetitious diatribe because it is all already described in the link I identified. "GS Charging Health".

The real irony in this particular case is that I strongly suspect there is noth wrong with the battery, R/R or stator and only connections and SPG are really nessesary recommended pending doing those things and rerunning the Quick test.
.
Given the reported charging voltage was 12.7V if we add the 2.2V (from the ground loss) the OP would be at 14.9V which if anything is high. This indicates there is nothing wrong except dirty connections and poor grounding that the SPG would fix. Your conclusion gives no indications of this probability.

These were my conclusion reading you post the first time, and so you might feel that I had my feeling hurt, but in fact I was really trying to protect yours by not jumping all over your first post.

Hey Posplayr,

I do really appreciate the advice and plan to go through the bike and clean off the grounds soon. But, I did want to mention that the 12.04V resting measurement was not a typo. This is the actual read when the bike is off. Also, the battery is a sealed battery that is only 1 year old, so I would suspect it is good unless the bike fried it somehow.

I also purchased a trickle charger and plan to charge the battery all the way up prior to retesting.

Lastly, from a clarification standpoint: it sounds like my problem is that my grounds are not actually functioning, which is sending power back to the battery instead of the frame correct? Also, my ground wire that goes directly to the battery contacts the battery box (metal) and therefore the frame. Could this be a problem? Should the ground wire going to the battery be insulated?

 

[posplayr]

Hey Posplayr,

I do really appreciate the advice and plan to go through the bike and clean off the grounds soon. But, I did want to mention that the 12.04V resting measurement was not a typo. This is the actual read when the bike is off. Also, the battery is a sealed battery that is only 1 year old, so I would suspect it is good unless the bike fried it somehow.

I also purchased a trickle charger and plan to charge the battery all the way up prior to retesting.

Lastly, from a clarification standpoint: it sounds like my problem is that my grounds are not actually functioning, which is sending power back to the battery instead of the frame correct? Also, my ground wire that goes directly to the battery contacts the battery box (metal) and therefore the frame. Could this be a problem? Should the ground wire going to the battery be insulated?

Then how do you explain that you got essentially the same reading with key on and a headlamp load? You must have been way below 11V when loaded.

As described it is basically impossible to have essentially 12.0V under the two conditions (restings and loaded); either one or the other is wrong and the only plausible one is really the resting number.

If resting is 12.0V and you put a load it, the voltage will dive because that is too low for a resting battery that has a charge. Even a fully charged good battery will drop about 1V under a 10 amps load. As you will have noticed the typical numbers would be 12.7-12.8V(resting) v.s. 11.9-12.0V(10 amp load)

Are you stabbing the battery post centres becuase the two numbers you quoted are impossible?

If you followed each step and reported each voltage in the Quick test most of this uncertainty would have been dispensed with. A single voltage that even now you are mentioning leads to so many potential alternatives that it is a waste of time to discuss.

Saying this another way, teh particular values and relationships of the Quick test voltages provide a wealth of diagnostic information. When You leave out 3-4 voltages you are simply are promoting guessing.

I mentioned a link before that would clear up your grounds also with other know likely problems.

FWIW, trickle chargers trickle they will take a very long time to actually charge the battery. You need to get about 2 amps out of your charger to charge overnight.

 

[Tenshots1]

So the voltage readings were correct, but that was just with the running lights on, not the headlamp. I just retested and it was 12.12v while off and 11.91 with all the lights including the headlight on. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the help. I first plan to go through and clean up the grounds, then checkout your guide if that doesn't produce better readings. Thanks for your help!

 

[Guest]

Be sure your battery is good. I don't know what kind you have, but even a year old they can fail. There seems to be no set time limit. I have seen people chase there tail tring to run down charging problems when it was the battery all along. I have 3 here that will charge up and look good. But will not hold the charge or drop like a rock when you hit the starter.

 

[posplayr]

So the voltage readings were correct, but that was just with the running lights on, not the headlamp. I just retested and it was 12.12v while off and 11.91 with all the lights including the headlight on. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the help. I first plan to go through and clean up the grounds, then checkout your guide if that doesn't produce better readings. Thanks for your help!

You should ignore everything I posted to this thread. I just reread your original post and coupled with the last post and realise I have no idea what "methodology" you are following.

 

[Steve]

So the voltage readings were correct, but that was just with the running lights on, not the headlamp.

Now we are going to ask you to go back and start the tests over, using the correct criteria. :-k

It has been a while since I have seen the exact wording, but I belive the first test is done at the battery, with the key OFF. NO lights on, NOTHING. When you have the key on (but headlight off), you are still drawing several amps with the coils, so the battery is already loaded, giving a false reading. Adding the headlight will draw it down a bit further, but you are not getting a proper indication of the starting point of the battery.

The second test will be with the key ON and the headlight ON. For most of our bikes, that is a rather consistent load, so it is easier to compare.

.

 

[GSXR7ED]

posplayr,

I'll be using your references (site inputs) when the time comes to re-engage my bike. I appreciate your knowledge based/tactful replies.


Ed

 

[posplayr]

A very large part of helping anyone who has come to the GSR to post about their Electrical ills is to figure out when the poster is getting good measurements or if they are doing something just plain wrong and reporting inaccurate results for any of a variety of reasons.

The Quick Tests is specifically designed to be A.) as simple as possible with respect to operating an voltmeter and B.) the full sets of measurements provide enough information to identify and separate 1.) operator measurements errors and 2.) electrical system faults from just 3.) low battery conditions.

There have been plenty of people reading the Quick Test and doing it but glossing over certain measurements assuming they fully understand the diagnostic usefulness (for example telling the difference between a failing stator vs dirty conenctions vs a discharged battery).

We now seem to be entering a new phase where the loosely reported findings of Quick Test results are being viewed as sufficient information/instruction to conduct "unspecified test methodologies" which are reported for the purpose of diagnostic help.

When Geol first posted this quote below, it drew more than a raised eyebrow from me and it is fully the reason I started recommending he read the stator pages to which he seemed to rail in defiance. Just another form of entropy generation I guess I will just have to accept it , but would hope people see it for what it is. In engineering circles it is called NIH ("Not Invented Here" syndrome ). "If I did not think of it I don't care what it is".

Your methodology is fine so far

Now I go back and read this which is what I assumed was a measurement of the the Phase A connection voltage drops and see that it was done with everything off!!!!! Whereas the real Phase A test is with the bike at 5000 RPM.

Attached Multimeter between ground wire and negative terminal on battery: without anything on, the voltage read about 2.2v, which seemed like maybe it was a problem area.

Uhgh..........................................................

 

[GSXR7ED]

Don't Worry Be Happy

Don't Worry Be Happy

Defiance="Not Invented Here" syndrome

I like the explanation. Kinda like how the interpretation of lessons learned from cagers.

"Definitely great situational awareness. It's never a good idea to chase after a cager. Take the good decision-making as your success and press on with your riding. Don't let the actions of the less considerate affect your day...they are not worth it. Ride Happy!"

Except in this situation, if someone provides guidance that interferes with your own feedback, take the constructive criticism and move on. Just sayin' and not enforcing it on anyone.



Ed

 

[posplayr]

Except in this situation, if someone provides guidance that interferes with your own feedback, take the constructive criticism and move on. Just sayin' and not enforcing it on anyone.

Not exactly sure what you are getting at here. My objectives and motives have been to improve what was started with the original "Stator Pages". The Original Stator pages were an attempt to provide an end to end ,step by step process for debugging charging systems. It had a lot of duplication with the standard information in the manual, but did offer a top down approach that is missing from the manuals. Nothing is perfect and those stator pages fault finding procedure did have some problems.

I started using the work experience that I had in generalized diagnostics for vehicle health management systems (which the company I worked for was actively involved for the US Army HBCT heavy tank vehicles ) and specialized those approaches to the GS motorcycles to come up with the Quick Test. Additionally I have offered up for discussion improvements to the original Stator pages much of which has now been incorporated into the revised website by Frank. There has been plenty of opportunity for discussion, field experience in terms of component failure rates and diagnostic performance in at least all the threads I have initiated on the subject.

I finally rolled all that up into GS Charging System Health which tries to take a very pragmatic looks at the charging system by adding a preventative maintenance elements to "best practices" for electrical system maintenance and step by step of what to do.

I can say without reservation, that had I not been involved so heavily with VHMS Diagnostics and Prognostic analysis for the US Army TACOM HBCT, I would never have gone to the lengths that I have in attempting to formulate the methodologies that I have been trying to foster here. I don't regret it; it has been a mutually beneficial learning experience.

Bearing all that in mind, it might be understandable, that I have a predisposition to not give exactly equal weight to someone else who in all probability has never considered the problem space and it's solution on anything to the same depths. Of course, I would allow that person sufficient rope to prove that to me.

 

[GSXR7ED]

Not exactly sure what you are getting at here.

Not intended at you. It is directed to someone like me who doesn't know a whole lot about charging systems on a bike but gave advice and was greeted by someone more knowledgeable who provided feedback in a tactful way.


Ed

EDIT: Now this I like...you're smart, no argument there!

"Bearing all that in mind, it might be understandable, that I have a predisposition to not give exactly equal weight to someone else who in all probability has never considered the problem space and it's solution on anything to the same depths. Of course, I would allow that person sufficient rope to prove that to me."

 

[posplayr]

Not intended at you. It is directed to someone like me who doesn't know a whole lot about electricity on a bike but gave advice and was greeted by someone more knowledgeable who provided feedback in a tactful way.


Ed

OK thanks for your support. While the technical aspects of charging system diagnostics is starting to become a real bore, the GS does provide a unique view of a variety of people's thought processes and that is probably of most interest to me at the moment.