Honda R/R Users Poll

[tas850g]

I have put 5k on my 79 850 with a Honda r/r with no problems to my oem 79 850 12 pole stator I got from rustybronco.

I check the vac and vdc periodically and all outputs are with limits(14.2v at 5k rpm's).

I also run a volt meter from showchrome and the output has not changed, knock on wood.

 

[posplayr]

bruuummp............

 

[posplayr]

bumpo...................:-\\\:-\\\:-\\\

 

[bwringer]

Switched to a Honda R/R about 8 or 10 years ago.

The original stator on my GS850G finally went blooey last year at about 102,000 miles.

I doubt it was the R/R's fault...

Replaced with a stator from a 2001 GS500 (yep, really) and no problems at all since.

 

[posplayr]

Switched to a Honda R/R about 8 or 10 years ago.

The original stator on my GS850G finally went blooey last year at about 102,000 miles.

I doubt it was the R/R's fault...

Replaced with a stator from a 2001 GS500 (yep, really) and no problems at all since.

What did the stator look like? heat damage or other physical interference damage?

 

[gearhead13]

I have a non-stock R&R on my bike that the po installed, not sure if it is Honda or not (I think it is though). He wired the sense wire wrong and my battery kept boiling away and had to refill it several times until I looked into it and the sense wire was sensing voltage drooped voltage, so I hooked it to a better source. Bought a new battery and havent had a problem since.

 

[koolaid_kid]

What did the stator look like? heat damage or other physical interference damage?

I believe I have that stator. He gave me two burned out stators earlier this year when I told him I was going to take a stab at rebuilding stators. I would say that it failed of overheating, the standard "all the coils are cooked" look. The wires look fine, there is no evidence of anything melting. IDK about the rest of the system.
I can post a pic if you wish, it is currently untouched b/c I use it as my reference stator.

 

[posplayr]

I believe I have that stator. He gave me two burned out stators earlier this year when I told him I was going to take a stab at rebuilding stators. I would say that it failed of overheating, the standard "all the coils are cooked" look. The wires look fine, there is no evidence of anything melting. IDK about the rest of the system.
I can post a pic if you wish, it is currently untouched b/c I use it as my reference stator.

Well it would be nice to document for teh rest of our viewer. I understand it was very high mileage though.

I have been a little harsh lumping the Honda units in with the rest of the shunt regulators. For some reason it appears to be less harsh (according to our poll results so far) on stators. It might be that the sense wire accounts for what causes most of the problems which is the resistance between R/R(+) and Battery (+).
The Honda doesnt do anything for ground issues, but the results seem to indicate a much improved result. That is my theory for now.

 

[crapwacker]

I did install a nice, large fused circuit to my battery when installing mine. So stock wiring was essentially bypassed, possibly averting any stator issues

 

[koolaid_kid]

This is bwringer's 850 stator with the wiring harness. Note the blue RTV on the rubber cushion/seal, which indicates either a leak occured or he had been in there more than once. The wiring harness appears complete, and I could find no melted bits.

This is what I call the back of the stator (I reserve the right to be incorrect, of course). Everything is toasted, including the wires crossing from pole to pole. I was not able to see any breaks in the epoxy which might have indicated a short to ground.

This is what I call the front of the stator. The three output wires appear in as good of shape as I would expect for a stator with >100k miles. I was unable to equate miles to hours of operation, of course. IDK which would be more important, since miles would indicate higher voltage output, but might include cooling from oil flow.

Some things to note: He did not say how many miles were put on the stator with the original R/R.
Would a stator which had initial damage due to the Suzuki R/R continue to degrade with an improved Honda R/R installed?

This is the stator from my 83 GPz 750. It is not an oil-cooled stator, it just hangs out there on its own. Although low mileage at 15k, I would have expected to see the beginnings of degradation by this mileage. To my untrained eye, it appears brand new.
I would expect the charging system to be a shunt-style design, but that is supposition on my part. The R/R has 6 wires connected to it. The R/R is also placed under the tank behind the engine and appears to be more in the airflow than my GS unit.

 

[posplayr]

thanks for the pictures Koolaid.

For the same rotor, the amount of current flow in the stator when shorted will be a function of RPM => Voltage and the series resistance of the stator (leg to leg) and the R/R voltage drops.

So depending on how the stator is would, if it has a higher resistance and the same Volts/RPM then the shunting would not generate as much heat.

That GPz 750 rotor doesn't look to have gotten too hot considering there is no oil bath. It does seem to have some discolorations though.

As far as the question about the initial v.s. further damage, it is probably safe to say that any heating cycles will cause cumulative damage. The most sustained/higher heat the worse the cumulative damage will be.

I suspect it was not totally toasted when Bwinger put it in, and so there has been some damage while the Honda R/R was used resulting in eventual failure albeit after many more miles than the typical GS sees and also on a model that seems to have continual burned stator problems (GS700/750 series). This is still a pretty darn good testament to the Honda R/R.

BTW, I bought an ebay Kawazaki 550 stator that seems to be a very close fit for a GS1100E stator. Of the several I saw, they all look nearly new or at least like your GPz.

 

[Matchless]

......It might be that the sense wire accounts for what causes most of the problems which is the resistance between R/R(+) and Battery (+).

posplayr,
I stand corrected, but not all Honda R/R's have sense wires afaik.

 

[bwringer]

Nice photos of my cooked stator, George!

More info... my GS850 had about 30,000 miles with the original R/R, which was functioning fine when I switched to a Honda R/R from a CM400. I also bypassed the useless loop up to the headlight bucket and soldered the connections at that time. One of the reasons I switched was that the stock R/R got really hot in operation.

It's worth noting that by 1983, Suzuki had switched to spade connectors on the R/R, but still used the crappy bullet connectors on the stator wiring and still had one leg of the stator looping up to the headlight bucket for no reason.

The blue RTV on the grommet... er, uh, I can explain. I was so young and foolish back then, and it's all I had around at the moment... I was in there for other reasons, namely that the original engine seized, so I ended up installing this original stator on two more bottom ends. Long, sad story... :-\\\

My GS850 spends a lot more time at higher RPM than most -- I'm not the least bit afraid to spin it hard on the highway and in the twisties. That might explain why the stator is pretty evenly cooked. I also use heated grips regularly, although they draw very little current (less than three amps).

I think simple age, heat, and vibration explain why it finally failed. I'm pretty happy to get that many miles from an electrical part manufactured 28 years ago.

 

[bwringer]

Couple more points:

I have seen lots of Honda R/Rs, installed several, and even corrected a couple that were miswired, overloaded, or whatever. I've never seen one fail. They're a pretty rugged design.

I also installed a Honda R/R on my VX800. The R/R is still working great, but the stator failed a few months later from the accumulated damage before I replaced the R/R -- the stock R/R was overcharging when it got hot, and it took me a quite a while to catch it misbehaving and track down the problem. After dropping in a new stator, everything works great.

The moral of the story is that it's worth remembering that stator damage is cumulative. If you have a problem with the wiring or stock R/R, it's pretty likely that the stator was overloaded in the process and that you will need to replace the stator as well soon.

 

[Griffin]

I have replaced seven Suzuki R/Rs with Honda sensing wire types on seven different bikes. In all but two instances, I either had to change out the stator at the same time, or very soon thereafter. Once both components were changed, there were never any charging issues on any of those bikes that I'm aware of.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Nice photos of my cooked stator, George!

Just doing my portion, Brian (name the movie that references). Pos, I have never seen a new stator so I have no point of reference. I just have the ones I have rebuilt; they are fugly, but they work. And the dead ones, of course, which are just fugly. I now have a Honda R/R and I take periodic readings and it is always O.K. But I have less than 2k miles on the Honda R/R, so I don't think I qualify to participate.
Note to self: find a nice voltmeter solution that blends in with stock instrument panel.

 

[bwringer]

FWIW, I recently scored a very nice low-mileage stator from a 2005 GS500 to keep around as a spare for my GS850. The epoxy is a lovely clear-ish amber.

I suppose I should post a photo rather than just telling y'all about it...

 

[posplayr]

 

[duaneage]

Seems to be charging system poll week around here, not sure what the discussion is since we all know the charging problems are easily fixed.

I've sold 243 Honda RRs to date and never seen a bad one. Ever. 5 people thought theirs had failed and it was always a bad connection. i sent them a replacement to make sure. If anyone ever returns one of my kits to me I'll send them a new one. And test the daylights out of the returned part on my ride. So far so good.

Basically the Honda RRs have superior diodes than what was spec'd in the N-D versions Suzuki used. Also larger heat sinks and a regulating input that adjusts the output, pretty clever and good idea there.

I don't know of anyone that ever "lost" a stator due to the method the Honda uses to regulate. They were all fried when the original stator had a shorted diode. A few people had stator damage caused by a bad N-D regulator and when they replaced it found the system performed better. Like anything else, a 30 year old coil can fatigue and a new stator might be a good idea. I was in the 9th grade when my bike was made, I'm surprised to see so many around these days.

Shorted diodes are guaru-damn-teed to burn up the stator. I don't buy the notion that the normal operation of a shunt regulator kills the stator, millions of bikes use this method and they seem to work just fine. A direct short is very different from a pulsed path to ground and the Mean Time Between Failures for this are pretty long. Other types of engines and vehicles use this too, it's not a conspiracy to sell stators. Yamaha uses it on the XS400 too and they have no problem with it, other than the wires shorting out against the engine case and once again shorting the stator out.

The RRs' I offer now have IC regulators rather than the SCR of yore and work even better at idle. The Diodes have lower forward resistance which translates into less heat than ever. I found a source for these and they are all new items. Instead of charging 125 dollars or more for them I still sell them at a great price that covers my costs and pays for consumables on the GS650G

The wiring harness connections throughout the machine might have issues and using the rear brake light switch for reference brings them out. If you have significant drops across switch and connectors get after them before they melt the housing or burn the contacts. Consider the brake light connection a good test point for making sure you have a clean ignition switch, the number one place for road dirt to get in.

Finally for what it's worth I have seen some of the WORST connections on Honda RRs you would ever imagine, complete with melted connector plugs from the heat generated. And the RR still worked just fine.

Anybody that has any questions can PM me directly, I love to help others with their bikes.

 

[posplayr]

Keep it coming

I appreciate your input Duanage. We are primarily looking for evidence of and statistics for burned stators in the three polls.

Many of the issues you bring up have been discussed at length before, so I'm trying to keep these polls focused on burned stators when coupled with different R/R's (OEM, Honda, or SERIES).