I give up!

[CRASHNBURN]

Dont giveup yet I know how ya feel been there done that. I traded my trusty ole honda crx for a 1982 gs1100e and it has probs ya just gotta work thru them. I still have turn signal issues I think I may have to change harnesses so I know its all correct. Just chill relax and start over you know everybody here will help and try to give you answers I will say I think this is the best rider forum on the net :-D

 

[Busafied]

yap- sucks doesn't it?

I drove to Florida to pickup my new project.
New Head gasket installed by PO, he said it just wouldn't fire up and thought it might be timing..
Got back put a battery on her, trying to get her to fire up.
Did that 4 or 5 times, she wouldn't hit.
So I put her on the lift...

Checked fire, had it, pulled timing cover and
rotated it by hand 4 or 5 times, then *motor stops*

So I pulled the valve cover.... looked at the timing marks hmmm think it is off by 1 too.......
OMG@$@$! SAND!

the cylinders ruined, head is salvagable, cams hopefully..
The bike will be back together this yr, better then ever.
point I am making is this-
The thrill of making something run again, after someone else has called it quits and deemed it unrepairable, is what I live for.

Don't quit, take a break, that is what I do.

Like you said seeing it setting there is somehow comforting.
Same here, I don't have to be able to ride it, just know there is 1 more "saved" from rust and scrap by the wayside..

now I am going to ask like the others have, because we want you to enjoy that bike.

1) With Plugs out, are you still not able to turn over by hand?
2) Will it budge Either direction?
3) Will it turn over w/o the cams installed???
4) Are the valves closing all the way, allowing the PISTON to rise in the cyl?
5) How does the Crank bearings look? Did you pull the motor all the way down???

More info Ron, we'll see what can be deciphered from here.

Ron K.

 

[Nessism]

It seems that many of us have stories of where we screwed up...er...learned something. Remember, it's only a MISTAKE if you do something wrong TWICE, the first time is a learning experience.

On my 450, I managed to bend a valve due to miss-timing the cams. ALWAYS turn the engine over by hand after pulling the cams to make sure everything is indexed correctly.

To check for bent valves, check your valve clearances; if a valve is bent it's won't close and the clearance will be sky high.

I also managed to get the cams 180 degrees out of phase which resulted in lots of cranking but no fire since there was no compression.

Good news is that I'm now well versed on how to time the cams on these old GS engines. We learn from our mistakes...

 

[ron bayless]

yap- sucks doesn't it?

I drove to Florida to pickup my new project.
New Head gasket installed by PO, he said it just wouldn't fire up and thought it might be timing..
Got back put a battery on her, trying to get her to fire up.
Did that 4 or 5 times, she wouldn't hit.
So I put her on the lift...

Checked fire, had it, pulled timing cover and
rotated it by hand 4 or 5 times, then *motor stops*

So I pulled the valve cover.... looked at the timing marks hmmm think it is off by 1 too.......
OMG@$@$! SAND!

the cylinders ruined, head is salvagable, cams hopefully..
The bike will be back together this yr, better then ever.
point I am making is this-
The thrill of making something run again, after someone else has called it quits and deemed it unrepairable, is what I live for.

Don't quit, take a break, that is what I do.

Like you said seeing it setting there is somehow comforting.
Same here, I don't have to be able to ride it, just know there is 1 more "saved" from rust and scrap by the wayside..

now I am going to ask like the others have, because we want you to enjoy that bike.

1) With Plugs out, are you still not able to turn over by hand?
2) Will it budge Either direction?
3) Will it turn over w/o the cams installed???
4) Are the valves closing all the way, allowing the PISTON to rise in the cyl?
5) How does the Crank bearings look? Did you pull the motor all the way down???

More info Ron, we'll see what can be deciphered from here.

Ron K.

yes the bike turns over both by starter button and by hand,but not fast.It doesnt turn over fast enough to ever start.The bike ran perfectly,it could go over 120 mph before i took it aprt so i no it had no internal issues.I am totally frustrated.So wat if i took it aprt,what would I expect to find?I might no recognize the problem is it was looking me in the face.I had no problems getting it back together.I put the cylinder block on,and the last inch or so before it seated against the lower case i had to take a soft block of wood and tap on eiter side until it dropped completely down,but that is the only thing that fought me.And that want bad.Like I said,it was just like it was before as far as i can tell.I rode it one time 220 miles and said to myself no one has ever made a better running motorcycle than my bike.

 

[ron bayless]

It seems that many of us have stories of where we screwed up...er...learned something. Remember, it's only a MISTAKE if you do something wrong TWICE, the first time is a learning experience.

On my 450, I managed to bend a valve due to miss-timing the cams. ALWAYS turn the engine over by hand after pulling the cams to make sure everything is indexed correctly.

To check for bent valves, check your valve clearances; if a valve is bent it's won't close and the clearance will be sky high.

I also managed to get the cams 180 degrees out of phase which resulted in lots of cranking but no fire since there was no compression.

Good news is that I'm now well versed on how to time the cams on these old GS engines. We learn from our mistakes...

Timing is not the problem here.I have it in time,i could take the cams ,slipper block,cap bearings off and put them in a box and with a stopwatch i could have it all back together in less than an hour.

 

[ron bayless]

Ron, I bought a GS(X)1100ESD with an 1168 wiseco big bore kit, pods and a dyno jet state 1 tune for ?700 ($1400) here in the UK back in 2005 from Eb*y. Looked good till it arrived home.

Took two months to get safe to go on the UK roads even thought it have a UK MOT test ticket then I rode it for three months before deciding that I had to do the work that was needed. It drank 1ltr of oil every 100miles, whines worse than the guy posting recently and won't pull the skin off a banana.

I stripped the rocker box off to find exhaust camshaft lobes had failed as well as cam followers. Plus the whine was from the gearbox.

Took 5 months and ?5500 ($11000) to get it back to standard and now runs like a dream.

When the engine went back together I feared that it wouldn't go. After priming the carbs and a new battery second go she fired into life. What an amazing feeling.

If I could afford the plane trip from the UK I would be knocking on your door to help fix the old girl. (I probably wouldn't be allowed into the US with my passport!)

You stripped her down to the base gasket then there should be is no binding her up from the bottom end. There is a chance that if you put new rings in one has not gone in right. Cam chain guides back in correct, front one in place no problems. New head gasket and head back on yep. Front cam shaft in with engine on timing marks. Count 20 pins and line back cam shaft up. Bolt it all down. Seems a little high as the lobes of the shaft need to push the open valves down. Oil into the sockets, chain tensioner on and set, rocker box on. Engine done.
With new rings she will be a little tight. If the battery is not sound then that will make her not turn over well and cause a poor spark.

You have done nothing wrong. There's a simple explanation.

DO NOT GIVE IN TO THE VOICE'S IN YOUR HEAD. YOU CAN SOLVE THIS.

Walk away from it for a few days then go back over it. When I timed my GS(X) up it took 4 goes.

PM me.

Suzuki mad

Yep, i appreciate all the encouragement,and yep i did all the things you said.I do believe now after all the encouragement u guys have offered i will take it aprt again and see if i can see something rong.The front cam chain guide...It seemed to go in only one way.It has a ball like end to it that fits into a groove in the front of the head.I dont see how it could be turned around backwards.

 

[ron bayless]

Beautiful trike.I had decided to keep mine all original except for the handlebars and seat.I dont guess I will be worried about that now.

 

[ron bayless]

What you recommend I do?
1.take the engine aprt again and stop when I see something wrong?
2/How other than seeing something bent will I know what is wrong?
3.Take it aprt like take the head off,see if it turns over freely at that point.If it doesnt then what?
4.If it does then take the block off and see if it turs over freely then what?
5.teach me,advise me please.
Forward Message

 

[NICK!]

I'd pull the plugs and turn the engine with a wrench and remember how hard it was to turn. Pull the cams out and hold the chain up and turn the engine again and see if its the same, if its easier then it has to be a cam or tensioner issue. If its the same pull the head and cylinder and pistons so they don't get dinged up, hold the cam chain up and turn the engine, if its easier it must be something with the pistons, if not it has to be the crank or starter clutch or maybe something with the basket. Be systematic and you'll find it soon.

 

[Killer2600]

I'd pull the plugs and turn the engine with a wrench and remember how hard it was to turn. Pull the cams out and hold the chain up and turn the engine again and see if its the same, if its easier then it has to be a cam or tensioner issue. If its the same pull the head and cylinder and pistons so they don't get dinged up, hold the cam chain up and turn the engine, if its easier it must be something with the pistons, if not it has to be the crank or starter clutch or maybe something with the basket. Be systematic and you'll find it soon.

I love it when a plan comes together....

But yea do what he said except when you take the chain off the cam don't turn the engine over too much or use too much force cuse a piston can hit a valve, if you take the cams out you don't have to worry about hitting a piston with a valve cuse they'll all be closed--just an alternative to removing the head to prevent piston/valve damage.

 

[Nessism]

I agree! Take the cams and plugs out, you will need to hold the cam chain up with your hand but the engine should turn over quite easily.

 

[Busafied]

What you recommend I do?
1.take the engine aprt again and stop when I see something wrong?
2/How other than seeing something bent will I know what is wrong?
3.Take it aprt like take the head off,see if it turns over freely at that point.If it doesnt then what?
4.If it does then take the block off and see if it turs over freely then what?
5.teach me,advise me please.
Forward Message

baby steps, take a breath, slow down.. then lets try some things.

Ron, pull the plugs, and cams back out-

Use 2 zip ties to hold the cam chain up, ties them around the middle chassis bar that goes under the gas tank, DO NOT make the too tight~ or the chain cannot freely slip over them, too loose and it will kink under the crank.

Now-

1) Attempt to turn over the motor with your wrench by hand/ atleast 2 revolutions forward and backwards-

1a) was it easy?
1b) feel any tight spots?

One thing that comes to mind, and bothers me, because I have done it before....

When you say the last 1" or so of the cylinder didn't want to go back easily...so you used a block of wood to get it on.

I have had two issues cause that scenario-

A) Trash / was in the Cylinder bolt holes & casued me to have force it down the bolts..

B) Caught the Cylinder on one of my Piston rings. It broke off my lower ring on 1 piston, causing the dragging of the piston when turning it over ...
"Binding it against the cylinder wall..

It does happen-

If you had a Scope, you could send it down each spark plug hole & view the cylinders for drag marks from a broken ring..

Anyways, if you have a tight spot w/o any binding on the cam chain , & your clutch basket if free in neutral, then you will need to pull the head IMHO-

Get back to us-

GL,
Ron

 

[ron bayless]

i hope to not have to pull the head off.If you have to get the block down by tapping it the last inch or so you would have been far below the rings by then because they are at the top of each piston.I think my whole issue of not turning over good is the cam chain is in a bind.I followed the instructions in the clymer manual but I found out both from chef and nessism that that is not right.I put the tensioner on after i had both cams in time and the cam caps secured tightly.I should have just done the exhaust cam,then the tensioner, the intake cam.That is what i will do next.I appreciate your input.

 

[Nessism]

i hope to not have to pull the head off.If you have to get the block down by tapping it the last inch or so you would have been far below the rings by then because they are at the top of each piston.I think my whole issue of not turning over good is the cam chain is in a bind.I followed the instructions in the clymer manual but I found out both from chef and nessism that that is not right.I put the tensioner on after i had both cams in time and the cam caps secured tightly.I should have just done the exhaust cam,then the tensioner, the intake cam.That is what i will do next.I appreciate your input.

The tensioner needs to have the plunger pushed back in and the lock nut set before you install it to the head. It doesn't matter when you install it but you don't want to let go of the plunger locknut to remove slack from the chain until both cams are installed.

Pull up on the cam chain in the front to remove the slack and install the exhaust cam. The service manual calls for clamping down on the cam with vice grips to get it to seat down so you can install the caps. After getting the exhaust cam properly positioned, go for the intake. Last thing to do after both cams are installed is release the locknut on the tensioner.

 

[Suzuki mad]

When I did the GS(X) the barrels needed extra help to go down onto the crank cases. The rear cam chain tensioner was catching in the chain tunnel.

Head gasket on and I put the cylinder head on. Torqued the head up and then the exhaust cam went in. No problem. Doing up the cam caps the socket went down the cam chain tunnel. Fished that out.
Inlet cam on and bolted down so I turned the engine over to check that it was all OK. I'd forgot to install the cam chain tensioner. The chain jumped several teeth so when I came back to the correct timing marks I was out by several teeth.
Next time round I had a kink in the chain on the crank end, forgot to keep the chain tight and I put the inlet cam in first!
Next time I removed the inlet cams chain cog and that didn't work either.

I then found that when I had placed the front chain guide in place I had missed its bottom locating hole so it was locating in the chain.

All the info sounds good these guy's are posting. You're not the first with this sort of problem as these guy's can testify too, expecially from there experience.

With the plugs out and a 19mm socket on the signal generator/points side you should be able to turn the rebuilt engine easily.

Just a thought, did you spread some oil the bore's before installing the pistons?

Keep going M8.

Suzuki mad.

 

[ron bayless]

When I did the GS(X) the barrels needed extra help to go down onto the crank cases. The rear cam chain tensioner was catching in the chain tunnel.

Head gasket on and I put the cylinder head on. Torqued the head up and then the exhaust cam went in. No problem. Doing up the cam caps the socket went down the cam chain tunnel. Fished that out.
Inlet cam on and bolted down so I turned the engine over to check that it was all OK. I'd forgot to install the cam chain tensioner. The chain jumped several teeth so when I came back to the correct timing marks I was out by several teeth.
Next time round I had a kink in the chain on the crank end, forgot to keep the chain tight and I put the inlet cam in first!
Next time I removed the inlet cams chain cog and that didn't work either.

I then found that when I had placed the front chain guide in place I had missed its bottom locating hole so it was locating in the chain.

All the info sounds good these guy's are posting. You're not the first with this sort of problem as these guy's can testify too, expecially from there experience.

With the plugs out and a 19mm socket on the signal generator/points side you should be able to turn the rebuilt engine easily.

Just a thought, did you spread some oil the bore's before installing the pistons?

Keep going M8.

Suzuki mad.

NO I DIDNT POUR ANY OIL IN AND NOW DONT KNOW HOW I COULD GET SOME DOWN THERE.bUT,i AM HOPING SINCE I HAVE THE VALVE COVER OFF I could pour some over all the head and cam jounal valleys and maybe some would get down into the bores that way.

 

[ron bayless]

The tensioner needs to have the plunger pushed back in and the lock nut set before you install it to the head. It doesn't matter when you install it but you don't want to let go of the plunger locknut to remove slack from the chain until both cams are installed.

Pull up on the cam chain in the front to remove the slack and install the exhaust cam. The service manual calls for clamping down on the cam with vice grips to get it to seat down so you can install the caps. After getting the exhaust cam properly positioned, go for the intake. Last thing to do after both cams are installed is release the locknut on the tensioner.

Yes, that clamping down tip you gave me made the impossible possible.It is impossible to tighten down 4 cam caps,hold the cam in place and push down on the tappets all at the same time.The clamping procedure lets you have both hands free.Great thing to know.

 

[Suzuki mad]

Oiling bore's.

Oiling bore's.

NO I DIDNT POUR ANY OIL IN AND NOW DONT KNOW HOW I COULD GET SOME DOWN THERE.bUT,i AM HOPING SINCE I HAVE THE VALVE COVER OFF I could pour some over all the head and cam jounal valleys and maybe some would get down into the bores that way.

I was only asking if you had put some lubrictaion to the bores where the rings will run. It would aid the movement prior to the oil pump pushing oil around the engine.

Suzuki mad

 

[ron bayless]

I was only asking if you had put some lubrictaion to the bores where the rings will run. It would aid the movement prior to the oil pump pushing oil around the engine.

Suzuki mad

PLEASE excuse the capital letters.I was not yelling.I am at work(dont tell anybody) and we use all capital letters here.I forget to unlock the keys sometimes.I appreciate your input.

 

[robertbarr]

The tensioner needs to have the plunger pushed back in and the lock nut set before you install it to the head. .

It's my theory that omitting this was what started all of this.

That tensioner shaft just doesn't back out, and installing it (without locking the plunger back) forces the slipper against the chain with much more force than it would ever exert in normal operation. You don't notice this force because there's very little 'feedback' when you tighten up the tensioner mounting bolts.