Just bought non-running GS850

[850GT_Rider]

I think I've got the hang of this uploading the pics now. Corrected some previous postings if anyone is interested.

Here's some more.

Loose choke cable and missing panel/handlebar mount cover :



.

Part of the overall problems with your bike is bad mojo from that tag on the key. I'd take that tag off and melt it with a torch or sumpin'....just sayin"....:-\\\

 

[eil]

Steve addressed pretty much everything I was going to say. I'll just add:

- Those tires, pitch 'em. The front one for sure. The rear one is highly iffy at 6 years old, but you might be able to get a season out of it if the bike was stored properly and you don't push it too hard. If it were my bike, I'd replace it.

Shinko Tourmaster(?) 230s:
* Front: 100/90V-19
* Rear: 130/90V-17

- The choke cable on my bike was the same way when I bought it. Had to replace it. It was easy.

- I don't believe there is a "panel/handlebar mount cover" on this bike.

 

[tirebiter]

Valve clearances are all less than 0.002" and all the tappets rotate easily by hand when the camlobes are not pushing on them. Is there such a thing as a 0.001" feeler gauge ? Is this what the stock camlobe looks like :



or :



One way to clean sparks plugs is to put them in a good running engine. #1 has me wondering ... even though it's only been a few 1/2 mile test drives on a dirt road, so far :



Wondering if there is something I need to worry about how well the intake rubbers fit :



When necessary, I resort to the small tappy-tappy and a very special chisel I reworked on a grinding wheel, to remove screws that have been previously damaged :



This is what worries me the most. I have read that oil leaks here can get worse over time. Maybe I'll get lucky after putting a torque wrench on the cylinder/head nuts. Will keep my fingers crossed until tomorrow or the next day when I have time to do so :







I know it's time to look at the Factory Service Manual to figure out what this is but I'm assuming the factory did not paint the spring :



If my guess is right, here is more evidence of a non-factory paint job on this engine :



For now, I'll have to wait and see what advice I get as far as valve clearances and what appears to be some head gasket leakage. Next up will be the dreaded carb "O"-rings.

 

[Steve]

I don't believe there is a "panel/handlebar mount cover" on this bike.

I was going to challenge you on that, but looked it up first. :-k

Strangely enough, the '80 850G had a cover, but the '80 850GL did not.

Is this what the stock camlobe looks like :

I don't know about what anybody else sees, but all I see is a message from PhotoBucket that says the image was moved or deleted.

You said you thought you had the hang of uploading pictures. Evidently not quite there yet.
By the way, you don't "upload" them, you just post the IMG link to Photobucket.

.

 

[tirebiter]

I was busily reloading the images at a larger size, Steve. They all look right, now.

 

[Steve]

I was busily reloading the images at a larger size, Steve. They all look right, now.

Yes, they look fine now.

I have not looked at the "new" format for Photobucket lately to see the exact steps, but you can go into your personal preferences, I think there was an "advanced" page, and tell Photobucket to automatically re-size any incoming picture. I have my preferences set to "800 on the long side", which seems about what you have. By having Photobucket do the re-sizing, you keep your full-size pictures on your computer, and don't have to worry about maintaining a separate file for the re-sized ones.

.

 

[eil]

The best feeler gauges to use are metric ones:

Because they start at 0.02 mm and go in 0.01 mm increments up to 0.09 mm. The non-metric feelers that I have seen rarely have a useful range of sizes for doing GS valve clearance checks.

Unfortunately, these metric feelers are rarely available locally. The best place to get them is eBay. If memory serves, under $10 for ones that ship from the U.S. or under $5 for the same ones that ship from China but will take 2-3 weeks to arrive.

 

[2BRacing]

Judging from the next three photos, I would guess that a large percentage of your oil leaks is coming from the valve cover and the point where the revcounter cable enters the cylinder head.


















I know it's time to look at the Factory Service Manual to figure out what this is but I'm assuming the factory did not paint the spring :

You do have the Factory Service Manual for your bike from BassCliff's site, right? You will find the correct procedure for adjusting the valve clearances in the manual, together with all the information on every other system on your bike. That "thing" is the automatic cam chain tensioner, and No, the spring was not originally painted, and Yes, that bubbly paint is evidence of a quick rattle can job. Also on BassCliff's site you will find a tutorial on how to rebuild and properly set that cam chain tensioner if it also leaks oil.

 

[tirebiter]

2BRacing,

I appreciate the mention of metric feeler gauges. I have never seen a set of feeler gauges inch or metric, that gets that thin. 0.00078" (= 0.02mm) is unbelievably small, super thin, foil-like. What kind of unobtainium are these feeler gauges made from anyway ? I'll be scouring the web and eBay for a set.

How critical is it that the valve clearance is more than 0.001" ? I'm doing another assuming thing here and thinking as long as there is any clearance - no matter how slight when the engine is cold - even as little as half a thou ( 0.0005" ), the valve clearance starts increasing as soon as the engine begins to warm up and the aluminum starts to expand. Thus enough clearance to allow the valves to cool properly when seated, during their closed part of the camshaft rotation.

Air cooled engines I have any experience with typically offer about 0.007" - 0.012" of an increase in valve clearances from cold to operating temperature. Do these engines act a lot different than that rule-of-thumb, I am used to ?

I have some more photos to post and will be doing that later tonight after I get to eat something ... long day today for sure.

 

[Steve]

How critical is it that the valve clearance is more than 0.001" ? I'm doing another assuming thing here and thinking as long as there is any clearance - no matter how slight when the engine is cold - even as little as half a thou ( 0.0005" ), the valve clearance starts increasing as soon as the engine begins to warm up and the aluminum starts to expand. Thus enough clearance to allow the valves to cool properly when seated, during their closed part of the camshaft rotation.

Air cooled engines I have any experience with typically offer about 0.007" - 0.012" of an increase in valve clearances from cold to operating temperature. Do these engines act a lot different than that rule-of-thumb, I am used to ?

You may as well be asking "how important is it that I add air to my tires? After all, there is air trapped in there when I mount them."

Seriously, if you are going to use inch measurements, make sure you have 1.5 to 4 thousandths (0.0015-0.004"). If you use metric measurements, make sure you have 0.03-0.10mm. I don't think anybody has bothered to avoid burning themselves in an effort to measure the clearances at operating temperatures, so we can't really say what the "hot" clearances are. What we do know is that when the clearance gets too small, especially on the intake valves, there is enough leakage or blow-by, due to cam timing, to make cold starting VERY difficult. The bike starts easier, runs better and gets better fuel mileage with looser clearances. If none of that convinces you, feel free to set them wherever you like, just please post your results so the rest of us can learn.

No idea what engines you have experience with, but be aware that these might expand in different amounts or different locations than you are used to. The hot clearance might get larger, it might get smaller, we simply don't know for sure. You want to volunteer to get those measurements for us? Keep in mind that they need to be at FULL operating temperature.

.

 

[tirebiter]

Steve said, "The bike starts easier, runs better and gets better fuel mileage with looser clearances."

This is enough to convince me that I should go for the upper end or 0.003" clearance. So far the bike starts surprisingly easy though. If I had not removed the valve cover to check valve clearances I may not have noticed the major oil leak until numerous miles into my first actual road excursion. For now I'm thinking it makes more sense to buy a front tire for instance instead of a set of valve shims .002" thinner than what I have now.

I don't have an unlimited budget and hopefully I don't have to spend a lot, in order to make this bike reliable. Not perfect but a good bi-weekly commuter. Right now, I'm more concerned about the oil leak and oil soaked shoes & pants, than I am about the valve clearances. Will definitely be checking into the tach drive, where it enters the head.

Charles, I should have thanked you for the metric feeler gauge link. Like I said, it's been a long day. Yes, I have the Factory Service Manual I downloaded from Cliff's website.

2BRacing, I am very thankful you spotted where the oil seems to be originating from is not necessarily the head gasket but above that and likely the tach drive entry point. The oil on the exhaust tubes was spillover after I had removed the valve cover. The gritty, grimy, greasy film of oil on the aluminum is 100% from a leak. These pictures show how the leaking oil has migrated around the engine, between the fins where the head meets the block :

















Speaking of carb O-rings ... I guess i know what it feels like to hear "I told you so" :





A few more tasty photos will get posted tomorrow. I'm BEAT and have a little less than a week and a half to get this thing roadworthy ... or get laughed at.

 

[tirebiter]

This ratcheting screwdriver holds several different tips inside the handle. A couple of the tips have always done good work on Japanese Phillips head - JIS - Japanese Cross-Head screws for me through the decades that I've owned it. Until reading why, right here in this thread (thank you Steve) I never knew exactly why. Now I do know why. The cam end-cover screws were not damaged and yes, the screwdriver is being held in a horizontal position by the screw head. No trick photography here :



I did not expect what I found after removing the covers though. At least they were all dry in there :



I'm thinking maybe somebody's idea of sound deadening ar insurance against the half-moons from falling out. Ever the frugal one - me - I think I might be able to use two of the rubber pieces for the rear gas tank mount :



Dry even underneath the gobs of silver colored silicon gasket sealer material :



On both sides of the engine :



The following can go in the "In case anyone is wondering" category :

My air-cooled 4/cycle engine experience is most recently with a Kawasaki twin in the new riding mower, here at home. Part of the maintenance includes adjusting the valves, which yes, I have performed on occasion. Less recently there was this Kohler single cylinder engine in an older lawn tractor here. It still gives service after many years (was built in 1975) and I've done about eveything that can be done on an engine with it, including valve adjustments. I had previously owned a Honda CB 400 and then a 750 four and both were needing work when I got them. Believe it or not I adjusted the valve clearances in them also.

Too bad for me the 100 or so VW valve shims I own are about .5mm too large in diameter to fit into the Suzuki tappet. The SAAB shims are way too small in diameter as are the ones in my Jaguar shim collection but those do not ride against the camlobes anyway. The Alfa and Fiat shims I have worked with are a very close match if memory serves me correctly, but I don't have any of them to check against. Oh well ...

Yes there are myriad automobile engines I have worked on but they were - for the most part - water cooled and this is getting off-topic anyway. heading out to clean off the residue and check the tach-drive seal. If time I am planning to pull off the float bowls and take an inventory of the jets, needles and emulsion tubes. I still think I got lucky buying this bike and about to find out just how lucky - or not.

 

[tirebiter]

Finished looking into one of the carbs. Quite literally ... top off, float bowl removed. Seems like all the jetting is stock. Obvious signs of screwdriver abusing a jet or two. VERY clean inside. No tears, pinholes or cracks in the slide diaphragm. Someone obviously spent some time in there before me and fuel never coagulated to cause the gummy residue that usually occurs from the bike sitting for a lenghty spell. Surprisingly cleaner than I though it would be. Float height appears ok too. Metering needle cone-shaped tip (metal) looks brand new ! Absolutely no sign of wear, no groove or any mark on it.

I have a question regarding the size of the carb-to-head, mounting tubes. Can anyone tell me what the Inside diameter of the aluminum part (closest to the intake port) of the carb mount is supposed to be. What I am seeing is a slightly smaller tube and it is aligned spot-on and feels like a flush port wall near one mounting screw. The opposite mounting screw is next to where the aluminum mounting flange/tube is not matched to the intake port by about 1/16". The mounting flange is smaller than the intake port !

Is this on purpose ? A manufacturing defect ? An anti-reversionary tactic ? Are there different sized mounting tubes available ?

 

[tirebiter]

Cleaned the area around the tachometer drive gear in the front of the engine where all the leaking oil may have come from. The tachometer cable was not screwed in very tightly and the threads had a fair amount of grit in them. Had to do a fair amount of wiggling and jiggling to get it unscrewed all the way. If only the tachometer cable was about 2 inches longer ...

Took out the tach drive gear sleeve next and checked the band. It was a good tight fit and appears to be ok. The sleeve was clean on that end at least. The other end was not clean at all. There was quite a bit of grit in the threads and when I looked inside the sleeve, there was grit inside the seal also !

Took the spring loaded lip seal out of the sleeve next and cleaned all the grit from the threads and inside the seal. Miraculously, the seal looks like new with a good sharp edge ! So does the tach drive gear :





After putting the tach drive back into place and cleaning the tach cable end and screwing that into place tightly, I started the engine. Let it warm up a good long time then shut off the fuel supply (remember my temporary fuel cuttoff ?) until the carbs ran out of gas. That was last night. This morning I checked the area and YAY ! NO leak. Not from the tach drive anyway. I'm going to have to wait until I can drive the bike to the do-it-yourself carwash to clean the rest of the fins. Then I'll give it a 5-10 mile drive. Any leak that may still exist should show up and be easy to pinpoint exactly where it is. Hoping for more luck but we'll see ...

Next it was time to look inside the carbs. I took the top off of one and discovered what appears to me to be a new(ish) slide and needle. I'm fairly certain this part does not have almost 30,00 miles on it and is almost 35 years old. See for yourself :





One of the reasons why I wanted to take a carb apart was to see what setting everything is at now. For now, I'll have to skip checking if the needle is in the stock location or not. My trusty Owatonna Tool Co. circlip pliers fell short by about 1/8" :



Next I removed the float bowl. It was about how I expected it to look inside considering how well the engine seems to run. Like I've been saying I feel like I got really lucky when I bought this 850. This is the BEFORE (cleaning it) photograph :



The AFTER shot would look exactly the same since I did nothing to clean it. I'm not even going to look inside any of the other carbs. Maybe I'll have to sometime soon after I start riding but I don't think so.

Turned the carb upside down and had a look at the float too. All good, all clean enough for me. I'm not out to rebuild these at this time. I just want to ride the bike and to me, this carb looks like it will provide good service for quite a while. Even the small aluminum piece (near the top of this photo) that announced itself by falling out unexpectedly is not stuck in place from old gummed up gasoline. In fact, I can find no trace of old gasoline residue anywhere. Apparently this bike was put away properly (no gasoline in it, dry) or the entire story about how it sat for five years is not 100% of the tale :



I took out some jets and checked to see what if they are stock or not. With the 4 into 1 exhaust it's been said here that I may need to rejet. Apparently the carbs have not been fine tuned for the exhaust but I'll wait to see how it runs on the open road for a few days before doing any demon tweaks. I have to admit, I'm old and basically want to enjoy good fuel economy, reliability and low maintenance, at a moderate pace. I'm not looking to do any barnstorming runs on this bike. Easy parking at my commute destination is another reason I bought a motorcycle. I just happened upon buying a Suzuki 850GS out of numerous other "basket cases" I looked at. I'm thinking this is just another example of blind luck - in this case, that I got a really good model for what I want - was sheer luck.

Even though I have some concern that all of the carb mounts seem to be offset or the wrong size or something, do not line up to the intake ports very well, these all look like they were all new not too long ago and barely used :



I bought the bike just over one week ago. My perhaps unrealistic goal, was to get it not just roadworthy but also reliable, within two weeks. I want to start using it right away for a 35 mile commute a couple of times a week. So far - keeping my fingers crossed - it looks like I'll make it.

 

[Steve]

I just want to ride the bike, ...

Good luck with your quest, but I will offer one small piece here.
I have said it before and I'll say it again (and again, and again, I'm sure.)

"Every shortcut you take just gives you one more opportunity to do it over."

.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Steve's point is there are passages inside those carbs that will clog and you'll never see them yet your bike will run poorly. It's wiser to dip the carbs for 24 hours each and get yourself to a baseline before expecting to ride it regularly

 

[81GS850]

+1 to cleaning the carbs. Carb dipped then washed in water the first time, second time I blew out all the orfices with carb cleaner and air. Works perfect It's not a bad idea to run an inline gas filter to catch any crap. Also I noticed in the pics, do you have that rubber plug that goes over the pilot jet orfice? If not you need one. Good luck! I'm dealing with my own first 850g

 

[mikerophone]

Fork seals

Fork seals

I skimmed through as much of this as I could on my break at work, so if I missed someone covering this, my apologies.


You'll likely want to drain/flush/refill the fork oil at some point but since it is late in the season you could attempt to re-seal the leaky fork seal until you can tear down and do it for good before the next full riding season. Pretty simple to get the forks to re-seal using a simple fork seal "tool" made from a thin piece of plastic. See my posts #24 and #37 here for the "sealmate" type tool.

 

[tirebiter]

I certainly appreciate all the good advice. I am however taking a somewhat different course and we will see if I become the laughing stock around here. I want to express my sincerest gratitude for everything all you good folks have posted for my benefit and I am certainly wiser for it in many ways. My past experience with road going machines includes no Suzuki mororcycles. I have learned a LOT about them in a very short time. I owe it ALL to this forum and in particular the GS resources website. There are several key players who have been outspoken and given me much guidance.

After making an air fiter cage for a stock type foam element and buttoning up most of the other loose ends I have deemed her road-worthy. Unfortunately I will not be able to get the insurance or regstration paperwork sorted out until this coming Wednesday. Hopefully an inspection sticker will happen the same day. In Massachusetts it's almost always a gamble when trying to get a title for a 35 year old machine that came in from out of state.

I am very happy to report that she runs a lot better with the air cleaner in place ... as expected. I never admittied to the horrible bog at anything above half throttle but I figured it was due to having no air filter element.

The new battery I bought was too tall also. I returned it this morning. The old battery is too tall to fit the tool tray over but it's still in there and still cranking the engine over freely, everytime I go to start it up.

Here are some photographs of "Little Suzy" :



I'm not sure what the legal aspect is for having amber rear parking" lights as well as turn signals :



Little Suzy is still missing the GS850L script on one side cover :



She is also missing one of the side reflectors up front like this one which is still there :




and where the reflectors is missing from :



Apparently the offset O-rings between the carb mounts and the intake ports are not causing a major problem with driveability. No bog, no backfiring, no hessitation at any throttle opening. I'll be monitoring the fuel economy closely for the first couple of weeks.

Thanks again everyone. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that al lthe short-cutting I did won't come back to bite me for at least 4-5 months.

 

[tirebiter]

It's been two weeks since I brought her home. Today, after the obligatory trip to the insurance agency and then the local and much beloved MASSDOT branch office, I brought home a newly issued license plate and registration. It was time for my first road-going test drive - right on schedule ! "Little Suzy" has now carried me for several dozen miles.

1st, the obvious things I noticed that are wrong :

I can admit fault and tell the truth and say "yes, you all told me so." She actually runs unexpetedly well though, but not 100% perfectly.

Although very eager to take the throttle right from an idle, I will have to do some synchronizing and very likely some idle trim, tuning. Maybe rejetting also to accomodate the 4 into 1 exhaust. For now, the carbs are staying mounted (sorry can't help myself). When fully warmed up the idle is solid at 1,000 RPM, when even hotter - after being in city traffic at stop lights etc, the idle is at about 2000. I get a small amount of "popping" from the exhaust but only sometimes and only during deceleration from above say around 4000 RPM.

After settling back into seeing the road go slantwise around corners and generally getting used to riding a motorcylcle again (been about 10 years away from it) I started noticing some of the other less noticeable symptoms of "she's not operating at 100% efficiency Captain".

2nd, the not-so-obvious (to me) things I eventually noticed that are wrong :

The drivetrain seems quiet enough except when I go into 3rd gear I hear a distinct high-pitched whine. Also, It's apparent that I need to replace the warped clutch discs. The shudder I can feel in the clutch handle/lever - as I slip the clutch a little to get going from a standstill - is slight but definitely there, when I can pay attention to it. Like when I am not surrounded by cars.

Once the engine became fully warmed up, oil heated up and thinned out, I could hear something else like a subdued knocking/clunking at idle that I did not notice before. Cannot hear it at all while moving. I'll be checking for loose nuts and bolts especially the exhaust flange mounts. I'm hoping for a slight exhaust leak but fearing a rod bearing has excessive play - or worse. Draining the engine oil will tell me a lot. Keeping my fingers crossed until then. Maybe I didn't get so lucky when I bought this bike

Lastly, the tach drive is not leaking anymore (GOOD) but the head gasket is definitely leaking (BAD). Apparently only in one spot, just behind the downtube from cylinder #2. I'm going to try retorquing the cylinder head nuts once it has cooled over night. I want to see if the nuts will run down the threads anymore than where they are now. If not, I guess I'll be ordering a new a head gasket.

I should mention also that now I see why there are so many fans of these bikes. This thing is a GREAT ride !