Kill Switch Won't Kill

[cp___32]

Hey Everyone,

I haven't sorted my spark issue yet. The bike had been at the shop getting a safety inspection so I knew what else I needed. Good news is that all it needs is for the headlight to be aimed properly and one other thing. The bad news is the other thing is the kill switch needs to function as designed and I can't seem to figure it out.

The kill switch will prevent the starter button from functioning while the bike is off, however once the bike is running the only way to kill the bike is to turn the key off. I checked the switch and when the bike is off I get power up to the switch. No power passes through the switch as long as the bike is off. When the switch is on, I get power through the switch and then when I toggle the switch off, again I am left with no power running through. I haven't been able to pin out things while the bike is running because a) I only just got the bike back tonight and b) It hasn't been running well enough for me to step away from the throttle/choke to start probing the kill switch to see what's up.

I installed the SSPB as the instructions said, and also performed the Kill switch mod.
To do the mod, I pulled power off the orange wire supplying the Front Brake Light Switch to supply the kill switch. I then cut the two O/W wires for the K/Sw and soldered them together so the original supply bypassed the switch and routed back to the coils. I ran the K/Sw output though a new wire back to Pin 3 (White Wire) on the SSPB.

The only modification I have had to make to the SSPB install was that I could not get Pin 7 to seat properly and it would cause an intermittent loss of power so instead of supplying the O/G wire using Pin 7, I now use Pin 8. I tried for several hours to try and fix Pin 7 so it would hold in the Molex connector securely or find a way to pull both pins and swap them but I couldn't get 8 out so I just cut the wire and soldered it to 8 instead. I can switch the wiring back to the proper pin but I don't see anything that would change.

Any thoughts on what I might have done wrong or what I can test to diagnose the issue?

 

[posplayr]

Hey Everyone,

I haven't sorted my spark issue yet. The bike had been at the shop getting a safety inspection so I knew what else I needed. Good news is that all it needs is for the headlight to be aimed properly and one other thing. The bad news is the other thing is the kill switch needs to function as designed and I can't seem to figure it out.

The kill switch will prevent the starter button from functioning while the bike is off, however once the bike is running the only way to kill the bike is to turn the key off. I checked the switch and when the bike is off I get power up to the switch. No power passes through the switch as long as the bike is off. When the switch is on, I get power through the switch and then when I toggle the switch off, again I am left with no power running through. I haven't been able to pin out things while the bike is running because a) I only just got the bike back tonight and b) It hasn't been running well enough for me to step away from the throttle/choke to start probing the kill switch to see what's up.

I installed the SSPB as the instructions said, and also performed the Kill switch mod.
To do the mod, I pulled power off the orange wire supplying the Front Brake Light Switch to supply the kill switch. I then cut the two O/W wires for the K/Sw and soldered them together so the original supply bypassed the switch and routed back to the coils. I ran the K/Sw output though a new wire back to Pin 3 (White Wire) on the SSPB.

The only modification I have had to make to the SSPB install was that I could not get Pin 7 to seat properly and it would cause an intermittent loss of power so instead of supplying the O/G wire using Pin 7, I now use Pin 8. I tried for several hours to try and fix Pin 7 so it would hold in the Molex connector securely or find a way to pull both pins and swap them but I couldn't get 8 out so I just cut the wire and soldered it to 8 instead. I can switch the wiring back to the proper pin but I don't see anything that would change.

Any thoughts on what I might have done wrong or what I can test to diagnose the issue?

Chris,
Sorry you are having issues.

If the one the wire on Pin 7 has pulled out then you could push it back in and zip tie the bundle or to another wire that is holding. It should hold the loose pin.

On wiring your O/G to Pin 8 assuming AUX is powered by default from the IGN SWITCH OUTPUT on Pin5 I don't see a problem. However someone else was having an issue similar to what you describe.

BTW your schematic looks correct.

The basic problem in his case and perhaps yours sounds very similar; once the bike is running, the kill switch does not work anymore unless you turn off the ignition. Correct? I think we have diagnosed the other problem but he has not confirmed yet.

Do you have a Dyna-S? The reason is that they (DynaTeck) have changed the directions in the Dyna S to power it from an O/G wire as opposed to a O/W wire. The power from the O/G on the Dyna-S holds the O/W up not allowing the SSPB to shut off the O/W. It basically creates a feedback loop around the SSPB. The solution is to make sure that the coils and ignitor/dyna S are powered from O/W.

Let me know if this sounds like it makes sense. Also feel free to email me at solidstatepowerbox@gmail.com.

Jim

 

[Steve]

I can't give you any suggestions about using the SSPB, but your comment about using the brake wire to power the coils is your problem.

I can't imagine why you would want to re-route your ignition feed to a source other than intended, especially since it does not enjoy the use of the "kill" switch.

With your current power source (pardon the pun) for your coils, if you happen to have a turn signal wire short out, or a brake wire short out, you will blow the circuit for the brakes, which would include your ignition.

Maybe that is addressed with the SSPB, but like I said, I have no experience with that.

.

 

[cp___32]

Hey Steve,

Yes the idea of changing away from the original wiring for most users doesn't seem like a necessary thing to do unless there are specific problems, but it's part of the SSPB install.

Hey Pos,

I have a Dyna-S and the idea of a feedback loop sounds like that's exactly what's happening. I'll take a look at how that's connected and see if I can switch the supply over.

Thanks

 

[posplayr]

Hey Steve,

Yes the idea of changing away from the original wiring for most users doesn't seem like a necessary thing to do unless there are specific problems, but it's part of the SSPB install.

Hey Pos,

I have a Dyna-S and the idea of a feedback loop sounds like that's exactly what's happening. I'll take a look at how that's connected and see if I can switch the supply over.

Thanks

Please report back your finding and whether that fixes the issue., I know of one other person that we went around in circles with similar problem.

 

[cp___32]

Hello Gents,

Got the (this) problem sorted. Drew up my own wiring diagram by hand to make sure I understood what was supposed to be going on. Went out to the bike to confirm that things were connected as they should be. I had an issue with the green 3 pin plug going into the kill switch. I jumpered the Brake supply over to the kill switch supply as instructed, but instead of that wire being the bottom wire of the 3 pin plug it was in the middle. On the other side of that plug was the new wire I ran back to the White wire on the SSPB, so you were exactly correct about the O/G wire backfeeding into the O/W loop. I moved the wire from the middle to the bottom slot on the connector using my depinning tool and now everything works as intended.

While chasing the voltage from the SSPB to the switch and back I was getting some wonky readings and only getting 6V at the green plug and no spark (so no start). That was confusing me but I took apart the kill switch and got 12V at through the switch then checked back at the green plug and magically had 12V there again. I'll check over the quality of the wires and clean the kill switch contacts cause clearly there's something funny going on intermittently. It's likely why I'm having the irregular running. Voltage drops would kill spark. When all is good I'm getting 10.5-10.8 at the coil when the bike is off and a little over 12V when running.

Thanks for the help. I'll sure up the wiring in the headlight bucket and it should be good for the safety. Hope this info can help you diagnose the other chap's issue. If he's got a 550 like I do, he should check that the green plug isn't messed up.

 

[posplayr]

It takes about 7v to turn on one of the SSPB channels and virtually zero current.

 

[60ratrod]

Pos, i'm not sure the dyna was causing a feedback issue since i did a temp hotwire from the battery for testing before i sent the sspb back for you to check out and was getting the same results as having it wired into the harness. Cp, the issue i am having is when i shut the ignition key off, but leave the kill switch on, i get a fault on the sspb, and my neutral and oil pressure lights stay on dimmly until the sspb shuts everything off or i switch off the kill switch. If i switch off the kill switch is flipped off before the ignition switch is, then everything is fine, no faults and dim lights. You said your problem was at pin 3?

 

[posplayr]

Pos, i'm not sure the dyna was causing a feedback issue since i did a temp hotwire from the battery for testing before i sent the sspb back for you to check out and was getting the same results as having it wired into the harness. Cp, the issue i am having is when i shut the ignition key off, but leave the kill switch on, i get a fault on the sspb, and my neutral and oil pressure lights stay on dimmly until the sspb shuts everything off or i switch off the kill switch. If i switch off the kill switch is flipped off before the ignition switch is, then everything is fine, no faults and dim lights. You said your problem was at pin 3?

John,
Since you sent the Dyna-S back and had DynaTech test and confirm the Dyna-S is fully functional and you sent the SSPB back to me and I tested it as being fully functional I have to believe the issue you are describing has to do with the way your bike is wired.

Also this issue of feedback is pretty easy to understand. The SSPB uses what amounts to a super efficient relay known as MOSFETS to turn on and off power to circuits. The MOSFET takes essentially zero current although a certain amount of static voltage to trigger. The symptoms directly indicate that something is holding up the IGN Circuit even after the Kill sw is switched OFF. In this circumstance it is essential that you only put ignition components on the ignition circuit so that the kill switch can control them independent of the IGN switch.

IIRC , the bike will not start with the Kill switch off, but it starts with the Kill switch ON and it will no longer shut off with the kill switch . To get the bike off you have to use the IGN Switch You have to use the IGN switch. This is a classic example of what is called feedback that results in a device holding a state after the input is removed. It happens with feedback. A flip flop is a perfect example of a device holding state after the input is removed. It happens because the outputs are feedback to the input where the device is basically a high gain Bipolar/FET switch. You can do the same thing with a mechanical relay where the output of the relay is connected to the coil input. Same thing will happen, the output stays on because it is being used to keep the input activated.

I know you have done some hot wiring but cant say I'm exactly sure of what you have done to tests this but what I'm almost positive about is that teh way teh current Dyna-S instructions are written is not going to be good when using a MOSFET type relay to power the ignition. For anybody else reading this, the newer instructions say to power the Dyna-S from the O/G SIGNAL circuit. While not having tested this, I would strongly suspect that pulling the drain high on the MOSFET will pull the power line high (through a Gate to Drain voltage) thereby holding the SSPB inputs high even though the KILL switch was off.

The fault light indicates multiple types of faults (i.e. there is no error report on an LCD, just a single LED for all channels). So something is wrong and it is apparently not the Dyn-S or the SBB as they pass tests on their respective tests stations.

 

[60ratrod]

I stand corrected. The dyna is the root of my issue. With its 12vdc hot wires connected, even hotwired to the battery, i get the feedback fault. Disconnected, no feedback. also, i don't remember if i tried to stop the engine by just turning the ign key switch off and having it to continue running, it's been that long since i dug into it. the kill switch will turn off the ignition circuit as it is supposed to. but if i do not turn off the kill switch before turning the ign key switch off, that's when i get the fault. i'll make a video for you Pos detailing better where i am, as opposed to the busy video i sent you when we were first trying to get it sorted.

 

[posplayr]

I stand corrected. The dyna is the root of my issue. With its 12vdc hot wires connected, even hotwired to the battery, i get the feedback fault. Disconnected, no feedback. also, i don't remember if i tried to stop the engine by just turning the ign key switch off and having it to continue running, it's been that long since i dug into it. the kill switch will turn off the ignition circuit as it is supposed to. but if i do not turn off the kill switch before turning the ign key switch off, that's when i get the fault. i'll make a video for you Pos detailing better where i am, as opposed to the busy video i sent you when we were first trying to get it sorted.

I think if you just hook it up as recommended (according to the original Dyn-S directions using O/W as power) and conform it works as should then you are done . No need for further investigation.

 

[60ratrod]

hopefully here's a better video of what's going on:

https://youtu.be/FxiFJDcLxx4

 

[60ratrod]

I think if you just hook it up as recommended (according to the original Dyn-S directions using O/W as power) and conform it works as should then you are done . No need for further investigation.

the original dyna instructions stated to use a power source such as the brake lights. i'll hook it back up how it was and see what happens. the only difference between the dyna instruction connections and the way i hooked it up was i used the 12vdc o/w wire that the original ignitor used. what's weird is the only harness connections the dyna is making right now is at the coils. hmm

 

[posplayr]

hopefully here's a better video of what's going on:

https://youtu.be/FxiFJDcLxx4

I think what you're showing is that when you hook it up as recommended it works and when you don't hook it up as recommended it doesn't work and you get a warning. I would not blame the Dyn-S; This is not a Dyn-S problem or a SSPB problem it is how you are hot wiring using that fuse. This is a problem with following directions.

The whole point of the SSPB is that it distributes all power from one of it's 5 channels. Each channel has detection circuits for shorts, overvoltage, open circuits, and undervoltage and thermal. It is detecting an abnormality when you connect something going around the SSPB by hot wiring Don't do that and it will be fine.

 

[60ratrod]

so i hooked it up as recommended, using the factory ignitor o/w for the 12vdc input, and the original fault changed. now, when i turn the key on, i have no fault. next i turn the kill switch on, and i get a fault. now if i leave the kill switch on and turn the ignition key off, everthing shuts off, like it should instead of getting that feedback fault i was getting. but, with the dyna connected and the kill switch on, i am only receiving .1 vdc. yes that's correct, .1vdc at the coils and at the harness connection for the dyna. so at this juncture, i'm guessing that the dyna is doneski. and just for shins and grins, i even connected it to pin 8, and still get a fault. i think the dyna is internally shorted. maybe it needs a return trip to dynatek, or i just bite the bullet and get another, and just swap the sensors over to the modified plate.

 

[posplayr]

so i hooked it up as recommended, using the factory ignitor o/w for the 12vdc input, and the original fault changed. now, when i turn the key on, i have no fault. next i turn the kill switch on, and i get a fault. now if i leave the kill switch on and turn the ignition key off, everthing shuts off, like it should instead of getting that feedback fault i was getting. but, with the dyna connected and the kill switch on, i am only receiving .1 vdc. yes that's correct, .1vdc at the coils and at the harness connection for the dyna. so at this juncture, i'm guessing that the dyna is doneski. and just for shins and grins, i even connected it to pin 8, and still get a fault. i think the dyna is internally shorted. maybe it needs a return trip to dynatek, or i just bite the bullet and get another, and just swap the sensors over to the modified plate.

You should have 0.1V on one or the other ignitor outputs (the coil (-) depending upon which one is about to fire. Both should NOT be at 0.1v at the same time . If you get 0.1V on both coils(-)'s at the same time then the Dyna is Bad.

Just to confirm as you rotate teh engine teh coil (-) should go from 12V down to 0.1 and back up cycling. The other coils should be opposite.

I'm not sure what you mean by 0.1v at the "harness connection". You mean the O/W is being pulled down to 0.1V? That suggests a coil is shorted.

John,
Can you call me?

Things are wacky and you should try to get to a baseline.
Disconnect the Dyna-S and connect only one coil to the O/W. Then ground the other side of that coil. Make sure you can power the coil through the O/W powered SSPB output without having a fault. Dont leave it on too long the coil will get hot.

This will test if the SSPB can power a coil without a fault. If it fails you could have a shorted coil. Try the other coil and see what you get. I would be surprised by two shorted coils so one or the other should work. Depending what you find out we can actually measure the current.

 

[60ratrod]

Well after a phone assist with Pos, we got it figured down to the dyna unit, as i had thought, but now confirmed. However, the dyna unit has decided it wants to work for the time being, but i went ahead and ordered a new one, which i will keep as a spare until this one acts up again (fingers crossed that it won't). I got it to start and shut off several times with both the key and kill switch with no faults, no matter how i shut it off

Without Pos's assit, and he's provided a ton, i would still be chasing my tail like an overly excited puppy

 

[posplayr]

The symptoms suggest that the power wire on the dyna-s is shorting on and off. Check the entire length of the wire for abare spot that could be shorting.

the sometimes it works sometimes it shorts operation of the Dyn-s is not indicative of failures of the dyna-s circuits