mobile phone charger

[ukjules]

I bought a mobile phone charger for my 1980 gs550 et
For a week's tour of the south west of UK in a tent.
(A fab trip by the way)
Anyway I had a battery that has worked for many many months bought off
ebay and a standard one for bike - 10 amp hours.

Anyway after a week of using the charger connected to battery
the battery is trashed. Won't start bike even though I charge it up
and shows 12.8v across terminals. after a few days I had to bump start
the bike all the time , something it never fails to start with.

I am convinced the stator is OK. Lights brighten with revs, voltage increases
on battery with revs, it only has stopped starting with the fitting of
the charger.

Also I tried ..... to make sure I did not keep it on all the time by
disconnecting phone. However I did charge it to 100% with the bike
not running.

Can anyone explain what was wrong ?
I have ordered a similar battery but more power 14 amp hours.
I also have a off / on switch i will out on device on positive side.

But why is the old battery trashed ? Why when it shows its charging
at 14 v ?
Help as electrics are my weak point !

 

[Steve]

Did you connect the charger to a switched circuit or one that's "always on"?

Even though the phone is not connected, the charger itself will still draw power, evidently enough to destroy your battery.

The preferred method would be to connect it to a SWITCHED circuit so it will only be in use when the bike is running.

.

 

[ukjules]

I connected it to the battery direct.
It was connected all the time for one week.
( the phone obviously not all the time,)

I don't know how to connect it to a switched circuit to be honest.
I am good at replacing the proper crimp connectors etc but I simply
don't know how to connect it to which wire when only ignition on.

Q) if I put an off / on switch on the device but still
connected it to battery would that stop the constant draw
as long as I turned it off when not in use ?

Q) what connector would I use to tap into a live wire
if I used your far better method ? What circuit , lights ,
Ignition ?

 

[Steve]

Q) if I put an off / on switch on the device but still connected it to battery would that stop the constant draw as long as I turned it off when not in use ?
A) Yes, that would work, but you would have to remember to turn the switch OFF.

Q) what connector would I use to tap into a live wire if I used your far better method ? What circuit, lights, Ignition?
A) Think of it this way: while riding at night, which one of the three fused circuits could you do without in the event that you blew a fuse?

Your three circuits are LIGHTS, SIGNALS and IGNITION. Losing the ignition in the middle of a curve or in the middle of traffic could be "exciting". Losing lights in the same situation could be downright disastrous. Given only those choices, I would choose signals, but there is a better way.

By using a relay, you can use a separate line with its own fuse to the battery. Don't think a relay is all that complicated, it's just a remotely-controlled switch. Connect one of the relay's coil wires to one of the switched wires in the fuse box (again, I would chose the SIGNALS fuse), connect the other relay coil wire to earth. Connect the supply wire to the battery (or to the starter solenoid's battery terminal), connect the load wire to your charger. Connected that way, whenever you turn the key ON, the relay will be activated, turning your charger on, too. The best part is that when you turn the key OFF, the charger will go off, too.

.

 

[Brendan W]

Is the battery trashed ? Have a look at the tests in the first post in this thread. http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?164993-Charging-System-QUICK-TEST/page4
Steve's idea sounds good. I have an SAE connector permanently wired to the battery for the charger I don't need. If I was going to connect to the battery I would go that way but have to remember to disconnect. Where is the charger and phone when you are riding ?
Charger will generally draw some current even with the phone disconnected from the outlet. Depends on how green your charger is. I would have thought a healthy battery and charging system could have tolerated 20-30 mA constant drain if it was being ridden daily.
On another matter , if I managed to get away with a tent for a week down your way I would 'accidentally' leave the phone behind

 

[Gorminrider]

30ma over 7 days is 5amps.. (.030*24*7=5.0)
5 amps is a half-discharged battery given your stated "10 amp" battery. However, trouble comes because leaving a wet-cell 1/2 or even a 1/4 discharged for any length of time is bad for it.

Also, any bad battery can be charged to show a perfect voltage immediately after. A bike will run with a bad battery, but it won't start the next day. You should let it sit for 24 hours before testing it's resting voltage for a better indication of it's usefulness.

simpler, IMO, just get an automobile auxiliary socket and plug your phone-charger in when you need it. Wire the socket directly to the battery if you need a connection when riding or just use some alligator clips to charge it overnight.

Most (if not all) plug-in car chargers have their own replaceable fuse in the tip, but another inline fuse..say 5amp- between a permanent socket and battery can protect against some grief where various devices may get plugged into it.

By the way, avoid the cheapo 12volt usb plug-in adapters. Many of these are bad. If you have one, it'd be my first suspect.

 

[ddaniels]

I have a USB charger on my bike and it's connected via an inline switch. I never turn it on, and never have, since I haven't charged anything on it yet. The switch turns on both the USB and a cigarette lighter type socket. The USB has a light so I know for sure it's off or on. The switch also has a light so that would be a reminder to turn it off.

 

[ukjules]

Excellent advice and thanks.
Let me digest , re test battery.
Will get a switch in first instance as it is easier initially to test.

I ordered a 14 ah battery but of course it is bigger and doesn't fit. Only the 10ah
one will fit. ( Height wise)
My original i think is trashed . Charged it overnight and had 12.6 v
Again a click from the starter solenoid.

Solenoid tests : getting similar voltage as across battery twrminals and with continuity test it clicks and beeps when starter pressed
And multimeter connectors on both posts of solenoid.
This means it is meant to be OK - I think.
Battery was always fine until I used that mobile charger and used a trickle charger
On bike for months. Never has an issue starting prior to mobile charger.

I'll test tomorrow and report

 

[ukjules]

Battery tests stats:

Battery a 10ah battery. (cheap off ebay but has worked fine for over 6 months)

Remember the starter solenoid just clicks so I can?t start it (I could bump it of course, damn I should have done that)

Newly trickle charged batter overnight @ 0.6-1amp charge
(note this is fresh off the charger not left for 24hours then tested)

In bike connected ? 13v
Key on only (no lights ? nothing) ? 12.13v
Key on and low beam lights ? 12.02v
Key on (no lights) starter switch pressed ? 12.08v

USB charger: This is connected directly to the battery terminals and the unit is thus always ready to be used. It was like this for 7 days on my tour.
The phone of course was not always plugged in but was daily when riding and sometimes (madly) when stationary to get some power in the phone.

The battery / bike from being perfect for over a half year started to need to be bump started after 2 days of using this device. It has not started on the starter since this time.

USB bike charger spec:
Specification:
Color: black
Input Voltage :12V - 24V
Output voltage: 5V
Output Current:3.1A
Cable Length:600mm
Size:5cm x 3.5cmBattery tests stats:

 

[Guest]

In bike connected ? 13v
Key on only (no lights ? nothing) ? 12.13v
Key on and low beam lights ? 12.02v
Key on (no lights) starter switch pressed ? 12.08v

If your solenoid won't do anything but click at 12.08V you have something else going on beyond a funky USB charger. My 82 1100E has a battery on its way out, shows 12.3V static, 11.8-11.9V with the headlight on and only 9V at the coils and it cranks fine and starts almost instantly even after sitting overnight and dead cold with this weak battery. Yours should either show a massive voltage collapse when you hit the starter button or the starter should be at least trying to turn over. Can you get the starter to run by jumping the terminals on the solenoid?


Mark

 

[ukjules]

Jumping the solenoid:

Nothing happens when i bridge that ?
This clearly should spark and try an crank but nothing ?
It will jump and i will get the battery stats when it is running - i am sure the stater is ok and it is charging.

Fuses ok. But the fuse box needs some serious work on it.
But i must ignore that for now as it only started to do this on a long run / and using that battery charger.
The charger is now off of course !!!

 

[Steve]

Be sure that if you are using a car to jump start the bike, that the car is NOT RUNNING. :-k

If the car is running, the voltage it puts out might be just a bit over the set-point on your bikes regulator. It will then try to regulate that voltage, which it does by shorting it to ground. Your car is probably capable of putting out well over 60 amps (mine is 150), but the bike's regulator will only handle about 20-25 amps. You can imagine the results.

.

 

[Guest]

Jumping the solenoid:

Nothing happens when i bridge that ?
This clearly should spark and try an crank but nothing ?

Yes, it should spark impressively and try and crank. You were jumping across the two big terminals on the solenoid, right? Since you connected the charger directly to the battery that requires pulling wires off the battery terminals and bumping things around a bit. I would start looking at the wiring to the solenoid, make sure everything is still connected and no undue resistance showing in the big power wire from the battery + to the solenoid. Wiggle the power wire around a bit and see if resistance jumps up.

You said you have ~12V at the battery side post on the solenoid, but do you have 12V on the starter side of the solenoid when you hit the starter button? It sounds like it, but I want to be sure. If the solenoid is passing power through then look at the starter. If the starter is the problem that would explain jumping the posts and having nothing happen as well.

Be sure that if you are using a car to jump start the bike, that the car is NOT RUNNING. :-k

This is worth mentioning again and again.


Mark

 

[Brendan W]

Would also be worth having a look at the return cable from the crankcase to the battery negative. The terminals get corroded and indeed the core of the cable itself can corrode.

 

[Fjbj40]

If your solenoid won't do anything but click at 12.08V you have something else going on beyond a funky USB charger. My 82 1100E has a battery on its way out, shows 12.3V static, 11.8-11.9V with the headlight on and only 9V at the coils and it cranks fine and starts almost instantly even after sitting overnight and dead cold with this weak battery. Yours should either show a massive voltage collapse when you hit the starter button or the starter should be at least trying to turn over. Can you get the starter to run by jumping the terminals on the solenoid?


Mark

Voltage means nothing, you can easily have 12 volts but not enough power to turn the engine over, in other words no amperage.

Use a headlight as a test light on your battery. If the light is bright and stays that way for 5 minutes then your battery is probably fine.

Then you you could look at starter button, wire to solenoid and the solenoid itself. Now putting a screwdriver across the solenoid is another way, but arcing sparks close to a battery and carburetor a can prove to be dangerous.

 

[ukjules]

Thanks again.
Doing all the test now .
Will report.

 

[ukjules]

Quick update.

Battery when connected to headlight for 5
mins remains bright.

Also:
Removed starter motor , cleaned the filthy compartment, tested
on bench. It spun when connected to battery but sounded odd.
Connected to bike and tested again isolating it
direct to battery - nothing.
Removed , back on bench , connected up , nothing.

Dismantled the motor , was filthy inside and magnets
in bits coming away from sides !

Coincidence:
So by simply putting a mobile charger on I uncovered all this
all at the same time.

So I am assuming the battery might be ok and I am looking
for a new starter motor. ( no matter what else is wrong )

ANYONE KNOW WHERE TO GET ONE IN UK ?
THEY ALL SEEM TO BE IN USA.

 

[posplayr]

This is a perfect example of why using standard electrical loads for a built in battery load test is do much more reliable than using the starter as a load.

The he quick test uses typical 10a loads which are very unlikely to be failed vs a starter motor that could easily be on it 's way out .

the quick test could have diagnosed the op issue in about 5 min using just a volt meter.
that is because the first thing it confirms is whether battery is good. Is starter will not spin with a good battery and shorted solenoid doesn't take imagination to conclude starter is bad.

 

[Guest]

Voltage means nothing, you can easily have 12 volts but not enough power to turn the engine over, in other words no amperage.

I don't think it's possible to have a battery hold a voltage under load and not have the amps to carry that load. If the battery is bad it won't maintain voltage under load and the measured voltage collapses as I said.


Mark

 

[posplayr]

I don't think it's possible to have a battery hold a voltage under load and not have the amps to carry that load. If the battery is bad it won't maintain voltage under load and the measured voltage collapses as I said.


Mark

That is exactly correct. State of charge can be directly inferred from what is called internal resistance. Internal resistance is how far the voltage drops as a function of the current delivered.

in round numbers if you drop 1v to deliver 10 amps that in 0.1 ohms of internal resistance and state of charge is probsbly about 80%.

if you drop 4v to deliver the same current then that resistance is now 0.4 ohms and the State of charge is probably horrible like 20%.

This how engineers think about batteries and most of the mystery disappears.

it is also why that is the first step in the Quick Test.

having low state of charge does not mean a battery is unfit for service. But after you charge that battery and it fails a similar test ; this is termed " won't hold a charge" and battery is due to be replaced.