New (to me at least) GS450 help!

[Draketh]

Hi guys, I just found this website today and it looks great so far and has been full of useful information! About a week ago I purchased a 1982 Suzuki GS450GA. The bike cleaned up beautifully, has about 6500 miles, and seems mechanically sound save for a few things.

The problems I'm having are as follows.

The bike will not run without the choke on! I put the choke all the way on, start the bike, and start working the choke down, before I get even halfway off the bike just dies on me. I turned it down to the point where it barely runs and let it idle and it just dies after a few minutes. I then have to turn the petcock to prime it get it to start up again.

Throttle hesitation! This thing had atrocious throttle hesitation. I mean I would be at a stop sign, and open the throttle up to move through the intersection and its like 3-5 seconds before it actually starts moving along at a speed that allows me to pick my feet up. I talked to the guy that sold it to me and he said the gas in the tank was about 6 months old and he *thinks* it had stabil in it. I took the seat off, took the tank off, and drained the gas as best I could. The gas was kind of brownish and in the little bit of gas I could not get out of the tank I looked inside and noticed little tiny pieces of debris in the little amount of gas swishing around in the bottom. The good news is the tank has been treated and the inside of the tank is covered in what looks like white lacquer so it doesn't rust.

I ran some seafoam straight into the carbs with the tank off, cleaned the tank out, refilled with 93 and added some seafoam and now after the bike gets going for a bit the throttle hesitation is barely noticeable after riding it for maybe 20 minutes. The only thing that worries me still is having to run it with the choke more than halfway on.

Do you guys know any trick I could try, or has this happened to any of you? I personally don't trust local garages around me to provide quality, honest service, and the person that does all of my families car work doesn't do bikes.

edit: oh yea, it backfires when you let the throttle out, what could be causing that?

 

[seuadr]

i would start with a full carb cleaning. sounds like it's pretty dirty, which may be causing a pretty lean condition.

 

[Draketh]

I'm probably going to replace the plugs on it too since it is an old bike, does anyone know what the gap on the new plugs should be?

 

[spyug]

Sounds like your carbs need a good cleaning and probably an o-ring replacement. Have a close look at the carb rebuild tutorial and contact Mr. Barr for one of his kits.

These bikes are cold blooded so running the choke ( enricher really) at start is normal but you should be able to close after about 2 minutes or so. Needing to keep it on and backfiring is indicating a lean condition which could be partially clogged jets or leaky o-rings. A dissassembly, cleaning and rebuild is the only sure solution. Seafoam is wonderful stuff but it can only do so much.

You should take a look at your carb boots as well as they can also create a lean condition if they are cracked. On the other side the aircleaner box and boots should seal properly as well. Lots of threads on this so do your research.

You're experiencing common issues so don't fret they are all fixeable. Start with the carbs....everyone has to sooner or later.

Cheers and good luck with the project. Keep us informed.

Spyug.

 

[Draketh]

Ok, so at the advice of someone that knows more than I do about bikes he said I should spray some WD40 around the boots going in and out of the carb and if the bike revs up that means it needs new boots.

It didn't rev up so I guess thats a good sign.

I'm going to replace all the fuel lines, take the petcock apart, and yank the carbs off and take them to a local shop for a rebuild, hopefully that will solve my problems. Its summer and I'm getting that itch to be out on the road.

edit: Is it going to hurt anything if I ride the bike around with the choke on? It actually seems to run like its supposed to with the choke off when I have it all the way on.

 

[Draketh]

Ok, I got the carbs off the boots, now I'm sitting in here in my back yard with my laptop and the carbs hanging from the choke and throttle cable. Whats the proper way to remove those cables from the carb? Anyone? Its getting dark! :shock:

 

[BassCliff]

Hee Haw Howdy!

Hee Haw Howdy!

Hi Mr. Draketh,

Let it be known that on this day you are cordially and formally welcomed to the GSR Forum as a Junior Member in good standing with all the rights and privileges thereof. Further let it be known that your good standing can be improved with pictures (not you, your bike)![FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]

Perhaps you've already seen these, but I like to remind all the new members. In addition to the carb rebuild series, I recommend visiting the In The Garage section via the GSR Homepage and check out the Stator Papers. There's also a lot of great information in the Old Q&A section. I have some documentation on my little BikeCliff website to help get you familiar with doing routine maintenance tasks (note that it is 850G-specific but many tasks are common to all GS bikes). Other "user contributed" informational sites include those of Mr. bwringer, Mr. tfb and Mr. robertbarr. And if your bike uses shims for valve adjustments, send an email to Mr. Steve requesting a copy of his Excel spreadsheet that helps you keep track of clearances, shim sizes and other service work.

These are some edited quotes from one of our dear beloved gurus, Mr. bwringer, with ideas on basic needs (depending on initial condition), parts, and accessories.
***********Quoted from Mr. bwringer************
Carburetor maintenance:

Replace the intake boot o-rings, and possibly the intake boots. Here's the procedure:
http://bwringer.com/gs/intakeorings.html
Here's an overview of what happens with this particular problem:
http://cycleorings.com/intake.html
You'll also want to examine the boots between the carbs and the airbox. There's a good chance these are OK, but check them over.
And finally, if things still aren't exactly right, you'll want to order a set of o-rings for BS carbs from the GS owner's best friend, Robert Barr:
http://cycleorings.com
Once you receive these rare rings of delight, then you'll want to thoroughly clean and rebuild your carburetors. Here are step-by-step instructions that make this simple:
http://thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm
***********************************
Every GS850 has (or had) a set of well-known issues that MUST be addressed before you have a solid baseline for further troubleshooting. It's a vintage bike, and it's quite common (as in, every single GS850 I have had contact with) that there are multiple problems that have crept up and slowly gotten worse over the years. It's not like a newer vehicle, where there's generally one problem at a time.

These common issues are:

1. Intake O-rings (install NEW OEM or Viton only - common nitrile O-rings will quickly deteriorate from heat)
2. Intake Boots (install NEW -- these cannot be repaired)
3. Valve clearances (more important than most people think)
4. Carb/airbox boots
5. Airbox sealing
6. Air filter sealing
7. Petcock (install a NEW one)
8. On '79 models, install new points or Dyna electronic ignition (or at least verify that the old points are working correctly)
9. On all models, it's fairly common to have problems with the spark plug caps. These are $3 or $4 each, and often worth replacing if you're keeping the stock coils/wires.
10. Stock exhaust with NO leaks or holes -- good seals at the head and at the junctions underneath.
***************************************
OEM Parts/Online Fiches:

I would definitely double and triple the recommendations to use Cycle Recycle II and Z1 Enterprises as much as possible. These guys are priceless resources. Z1 tends to have slightly better prices, CRC2 has a wider range of goodies available. If you're near Indy and can bring in an old part to match, CRC2 has a vast inventory of used parts.
http://denniskirk.com - Put in your bike model and see what they have.
http://oldbikebarn.com - seems to be slowly regaining a decent reputation, but it's still caveat emptor. They don't have anything you can't get elsewhere at a better price anyway.
http://www.babbittsonline.com/ - Decent parts prices. Spendy shipping. Don't give you part numbers at all. Useful cross-reference if you obtain a part number elsewhere. Efficient service.
http://bikebandit.com - Fastest. Middlin' prices. Uses their own parts numbering system to obfuscate price comparisons -- can be very confusing for large orders. Cheapest shipping, so total cost usually isn't too bad.
http://flatoutmotorcycles.com - Slow. Cheapest parts prices, crazy shipping costs. Don't expect progress updates or much communication. Real Suzuki part numbers.
http://alpha-sports.com - Exorbitant parts prices. Different type of fiche interface that's quite useful at times, especially with superceded part numbers. Real parts numbers. Shipping cost and speed unknown due to insane, unholy pricing.

Stainless Bolts, Viton o-rings, metric taps, dies, assorted hard-to-find supplies and materials, etc:

http://mcmaster.com - Fast, cheap shipping, good prices. No order minimum, but many items like bolts come in packs of 25 or 50. Excellent resource.
http://motorcycleseatcovers.com - Great quality, perfect fit (on original seat foam), and available for pretty much every bike ever made. Avoid the textured vinyl -- it's perforated.
http://newenough.com - You DO have riding gear, don't you? Great clearances, always outstanding prices and impeccable service.
***************End Quote**********************
Additional parts/info links:

GSR Forum member Mr. duaneage has great used upgraded Honda regulator/rectifiers for our bikes. Send him a PM.
New electrical parts:
http://stores.ebay.com/RMSTATOR or http://www.rmstator.com/
http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/index.php
http://www.electrosport.com/
For valve cover and breather cover gaskets, I recommend Real Gaskets (reusable silicon):
http://www.realgaskets.com
The Rice Paddy (salvage/used)
http://www.ricepaddymotorcycles.com
Carolina Cycle
http://www.carolinacycle.com
Ron Ayers Motorsports
http://www.ronayers.com
MR Cycles
http://www.mrcycles.com
Moto Grid
http://www.motogrid.com
If all else fails, try this:
http://www.used-motorcycle-parts.org/
Used bike buying checklists:
http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/Riderresc/checklist.asp
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike.html
Lots of good info/pictures here:
http://www.suzukicycles.org
http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Motorcycle_Wiki

Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed of your progress. There's lots of good folk with good experience here.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
(The unofficial GSR greeter)

 

[Draketh]

Alrighty. It was getting dark just as I got the throttle and choke cables off the carbs and pulled them. Unfortunately I destroyed one of the airbox boots in the process. I didnt have time to mess around with them too much before it got dark.

I dropped the bowls off of each carb and poked around, the gaskets seem to be in reusable shape which is good. They were actually surprisingly clean which astonished me. One carb did have a little more brown residue than the other. The odd thing about my carb thats different from the pictures in the guide is down near the bottom of the bowls there were two hose connections connecting both bowls via a little peice of fuel line. I'm not sure what those are for but the hole in the bowl where they come out has a little silver bearing in the bottom, then a little brass cylinder in top of the bearing, and then a little clip to hold it all in while giving it room to move back and forth.

I noticed the little tiny clip that holds everything in on one seemed to be a part designed for the job, but the other carb the has a little peice of wire almost crushed and bent into a circle and jammed into the hole.

I have no idea if this makes any sense to anyone but could that be the problem that the little bearing and brass rod don't have much room to move like in the other carb?

If you have no idea what I'm talking about just wait for now, I'm going to post pictures tomorrow since my carbs are out in the shed out back.

 

[Draketh]

Ok finally said screw it and did the carb rebuild. It was pretty clean inside save for one pilot jet being 100% blocked. I cleared it out with a piece of wire snipped off a brush like in the guide.

If I'm not mistaken the pilot jet controls your idle right? If thats the case it may have been why my bike was not idling without the choke on. Would clearing that jet out also solve my throttle hesitation problems?

The last cause for concern I saw in the carb was this.

Unlike the pictures in the guide theres a small whole in each bowl that contains the following from top to bottom inside the whole.

1. Little Metal clip that is stopped by a lip to hold everything in.
2. Small brass rod.
3. A ball bearing.

My carb block is two conjoined carbs since the bike is a two cylinder. The hole leads down to a little valve that connects to another valve that is exactly the same on the bottom of the other carbs bowl. Now in one bowl the little metal clip looks like it was exactly for the job of holding that ball and rod in place, and fit just right as to allow the ball and rod to move up and down. In the other carb the little metal clip looks like it was lost and someone just bent a small peice of wire in a circle and jammed it in and the ball and rod inside the hole does not move at all.

Now. Does anyone have any idea why this little passageway connected by a small hose goes from one carb to the other? I'm sure if its there it has a purpose, and I'm no mechanical expert by a long shot but it seems to me like it might be to keep the gas levels the same in each bowl?

If anyone has seen something like this before please advise me as to what it is, what it does, and if I should try to find a replacement small metal clip insert to insure proper operation of the bike. I've looked all over bike bandit and whatnot and it does not even show this little peice I'm talking about on the carb so I don't know if I will even be able to get a replacement I may have to fabricate something...

Will provide pictures when I can, out in the country visiting my grandparents and using dial up. :shock:

 

[Draketh]

Ok, so I just sat here and checked every single little part on the bike bandit carb schematic for my bike, and I even checked both models from the two years my bike was made and I cannot seem to find the little silver ball, rod, clip assembly on either of them of them so I'm kind of at a loss as to where to get a replacement clip for the one carb. :?

 

[kinelbor]

I cleaned my carbs out twice and still had the hesitation unless I rode with the choke partway on, it also seemed to surge a bit at a slower cruising speed. I upped the pilots from 17.5 to 20s and all the problems went away. I had to retune my fuel screws a bit.

 

[Draketh]

Also how far in should my pilot jets be? When I first took it apart they were all the way in and wouldn't go any deeper so thats where I put them back to.

 

[catbed]

sounds like what you're describing is a makeshift float needle. could be wrong though.

 

[Draketh]

sounds like what you're describing is a makeshift float needle. could be wrong though.

No, the float needle is fine, its actually a little hole drilled into the wall of the bowl, like the hole where the choke pickup goes into, but it has those components in it, and at the bottom of the hole theres a nozzle connected by a small length of tubing to another nozzle on the other bowl that leads up into a hole with the same ball rod and clip assembly in it.

 

[catbed]

sorry, you've stumped me. sounds like a stupid mod that the PO did. i'd seal the holes and not worry about it.

 

[Draketh]

sorry, you've stumped me. sounds like a stupid mod that the PO did. i'd seal the holes and not worry about it.

I'm home now, will post pictures before the carbs go back on the bike.

 

[Draketh]

I'm having some trouble getting the carbs back on....to get them off I kind of just pinched the air box boots together and pulled them out, but now I can't get the carbs and boots back on, the clearances are just too small. What the best way to get the carbs back on do I have to remove the airbox or something?

How did you get the carbs back on easily?

 

[Draketh]

Anyone with any ideas on how to easily get these carbs back on my bike? :|

 

[robertbarr]

If you have the carbs off and you didn't change the intake O-rings, then you're pretty much wasting your time.

As for the carbs -- the extra components you are talking about must be particular to the 'A' model of that bike, or else they're not the original carbs for that bike; I have the carbs from an '81 450 torn apart here, down to the tiniest screw, and there's nothing even close to what you describe. Really not sure what to suggest, except to try to replicate the clip you mention.

I don't have a 450 kit yet -- I'm developing one as we type -- but when you mention that the carbs were very clean but "One carb did have a little more brown residue than the other. " and "It was pretty clean inside save for one pilot jet being 100% blocked." leads me to believe that it's time to shell out for a gallon of Berryman's and do the job thoroughly.

Unless you're going to be thorough about establishing a baseline of clean carbs (including the internal passages), an intact intake path and correct valve clearances, you're going to frustrate yourself until the riding season is over.

 

[Draketh]

Thanks for the extra info robert. I'd like to see how the bike runs after clearing the jet and cleaning all the screws, passages, and whatnot. Whats the easiest way for me to get the carbs back on? I've tried putting the boots on the carbs first, putting the boots on the airbox first, and I just can't get this darn things back on. Do I have to take the air box off, or unmount it and move it back? I spent two hours last night trying to get the carbs back on and got to the point where I want to throw them across the driveway before I put everything away for the night.