Newbie with Starter issue - 1980 GS1100L

[Guest]

Hello all! Recently purchased a 1980 GS1100L, after not having had a motorcycle since 1982. On the SECOND DAY, at a gas pump after filling up, the starter spins/whirs freely but does not engage the engine to crank. Son and friend had to push me off to get her home. I have always been very mechanically oriented and a great tinkerer, but admittedly not good with electrics or major mechanic work. Here are my questions:
1) I have removed the starter cover, just to look at it (what else is a guy supposed to do!). Can one take the starter motor/housing out, without having to remove the crankcase cover first (draining the oil prior)?
2) Could it be just the solenoid (and where is said solenoid )?
3) Also, PO had let me know the front master cylinder was leaking (trying to get a new reservoir), and there is brake fluid on the pivot of the brake handle, with some perhaps getting into the start button housing on the handlebar. Could that possibly impact the solenoid?s function to engage the engine?

I was excited to get the bike, but already am unable to ride due to this issue. :frown-new: Just started a new corporate job and haven?t had much time to dig into things. Have tried to download manuals, etc. just to get prepared and have handy. Finding out that not many shops work on older bikes here in the Nashville area.

Anyway, any suggestions would be helpful (and again, pretty much a neophyte with electrics, assessing current/amps, etc.).

Thanks guys!
Here?s a pic (planning on putting more flatter/sportier handlebars on her/less cruiser style).

 

[tom203]

"I have always been very mechanically oriented and a great tinkerer"

you have found the right item to tinker with! Starter motor spins, so starter solenoid is working,but it ain't engaging the crankshaft....probably a faulty starter clutch. You can carefully tilt bike to right, prop it up carefully and remove the left side cover without draining oil. This will let you sorta inspect the mechanism. A tinkerer's delight,

 

[Guest]

Thanks! Would the repair simply be removing the old and replacing with new? How will I diagnose anything else related to the clutch?

 

[tom203]

The word " simply" likely doesn't apply here... The starter clutch itself could be bad..or its "grip" on crankshaft nose might be gouged causing it to slip. Read this link from Basscliff regarding stator cover removal. This is the point to begin at,as it will let you observe the mechanism and figure what has gone wrong.

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/images/GS850stator.pdf

If you need to pull the rotor, a special tool is required to pull rotor off crankshaft - don't even think sbout prying or hammering it off.
Here's a pic of starter clutch roller mechanism mounted on back of the rotor.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, tom203. I intend to dig into things later this week (hopefully). I am thinking of replacing the stator once I begin digging in. I don’t think it has ever been replaced (PO had it since ‘88; said he had never replaced it). I suspect it may not be a 100%, and since I am going to open the cover up, thought it would be a good time to replace it). Since they weren’t expensive I went ahead and order the clutch rebuild set from Z1, since they weren’t expensive. I assume that I need to order a new stator cover gasket. I guess I won’t know of any other parts needed until I dig in.

Guess I may need to order that rotor removal tool. Pardon my ignorance but once the rotor is removed, is the starter clutch removal pretty straight forward? Haven’t seen any good direction on that in the service manual. From your comment, is the s.clutch on the back of the rotor?

Also, I noticed on one of Basscliff’s pics that the starter cover had a gasket. I noticed that mine doesn’t have one, and don’t believe i’ve Seen them for sale from the parts vendors. Are these available/needed? Thanks so much for your advice!

 

[tom203]

My bike is missing the starter cover gasket too..just make one!
the rotor removal tool is about $30.... You might find someone/shop and be able to borrow one. Note that it fits over that big external thread on hub...smaller bikes used a tool that screwed into hub.
The starter clutch gizmo is bolted to back of rotor - has 3 pairs of roller/spring. This stuff could be ok, but the rotor/ crank surface could be damaged and slipping when the starter clutch drives it. The big motors are tough on this area.
Your stator might be fine, so I'd wait and check it out later. A new stator gasket will usually allow a few removals.

 

[Guest]

Thanks tom203, Learning a lot here. I’ve already bit the bullet on the new stator. As for the rotor removal tool, I don’t think I can find one. It looks the one we need has the “pins” placed at a 180 on the exterior of the rotor, “piercing” in. The ones I see appear to have the pins connecting on the face of something, but our rotor appears to be “hollow-ish” to the inside. Hopefully that makes sense. Can you share a link to one that fits our GS’s?

Also , will I need the rotor remover tool as well, or is there a work around?

I’ve got a question or two I’ll post in a separate thread as well. Thanks for your responses, tom203! No one else has commented. You’ve been a great help.

 

[tom203]

" it looks the one we need has the ?pins? placed at a 180 on the exterior of the rotor, ?piercing? in..."

It 's not Halloween yet, but you 're scaring me here! Those holes on rotor are drilled for balancing purposes, NOT for grabbing. Unless I'm mistaken you want something like this puller with a female thread to mate with your rotor's hub, (it screws on,than the bolt pushes rotor off crank" )something like this pic.. But wait for a member here with this bike to confirm....measure the diameter of the hub's male thread

 

[Guest]

Ha! Thanks,tom203. I ordered a removal tool from Z1 last night. The rotor “holder” tool was the one I can’t seem to find. Hopefully I’ll be good to go. I’ll try and post a video of one I ran across of YouTube last night. It is exactly my issue, so definitely a starter clutch issue. Certain parts of the video were definitely helpful (placing the springs and cylinders in teh clutch plate for example), were very helpful to see in the video.

I have all the parts ordered I need to move forward with repairs. If I uncover something else once I get in there...that’ll be another issue.

 

[Guest]

I’ve proceeded ahead with the repair. Curiously the nut that holds the stator on the shaft was loose enough that I undid it by hand. The rotor was loose and simply slid right off as I pulled it by hand ( meaning I didn’t have to use the “puller” I purchased). I wonder if the stator/starter clutch housing being loose could have caused the lack of the starter engaging the engine. I see no damage anywhere and the s-clutch cylinders and springs all looked okay. I went ahead and replaced them with the rebuild kit. I’ve put everything back on the shaft now.

I’ve bought a new stator, and since I had the case off, was looking at replacing the old. The last time I rode, my son push started me and after 10 minutes of riding and returning home, the battery had been pulled down. I wonder if the rotor simply wasn’t spinning with the shaft like it should have.

 

[Guest]

Got everything buttoned up. She starts just fine!! Decided not to fool with the stator. I’ll follow guidance from the “Stator Papers” and check my charging system out soon (now that it starts!). If I determine an issue, I can replace it then. I also ordered a package of the Allen head bolts from Z1 to replace the outer crankcase bolts, so I won’t have to use an impact driver next time (had to buy that too ). The only thing left is the long bolt that goes through the frame mounts that hold the bars that protect the crankcase it the bike gets dropped (don’t know th etechnicalname for those). The long bolt is bent slightly and the threads are fairly trashed. I ordered a new one from Babbitts online, but the nut I have doesn’t fit it. I’ll go to Home Depot tomorrow and hopefully get a metric nut that is the right size and pitch.

 

[tom203]

"I wonder if the rotor simply wasn?t spinning with the shaft like it should have."

Don't wonder, make sure! How did the mating surfaces look on rotor/ crank? Not gouged? These big motors abuse the starter clutch!

 

[Guest]

Honestly, everything looked in great shape. No marks anywhere. I looked very carefully at everything. Rotor looked fine. Stator looked good. Starter clutch looked good. The interior of the case cover looked good. The crankshaft nut simply wasn’t very tight.

I put the nut back on the crankshaft good and tight, with “red” locktite, as per the service manual (equivalent to the Suzuki threadlock specified). Hopefully that nut won’t loosen again. Plus I replaced all of the parts in the starter clutch,so I should be good.

As always, thanks for lo of your comments tom203. No one else has commented so I greatly appreciate the tutelage.

 

[gustovh]

Just picked up on this thread. I have the same bike. Check voltage at the battery with the bike at around 2500-3000, should be over 13 volts and up to near 14 volts. Anything less and back to work for you. Go through all your connections and make sure that they are clean and the fittings are in good shape. Especially the pair of wire sets under the tank on the right front side..

I have something over 38,000 on mine now. Just so that you know the 80-81 1100E engines are the same for all intense and purposes. Just bear in mind that you own a one year bike and many parts are hard to find.

V

 

[Guest]

Just picked up on this thread. I have the same bike. Check voltage at the battery with the bike at around 2500-3000, should be over 13 volts and up to near 14 volts. Anything less and back to work for you. Go through all your connections and make sure that they are clean and the fittings are in good shape. Especially the pair of wire sets under the tank on the right front side..

I have something over 38,000 on mine now. Just so that you know the 80-81 1100E engines are the same for all intense and purposes. Just bear in mind that you own a one year bike and many parts are hard to find.

V

Yep...now that i’ve ridden it a bit, I definitely have some electrical charging system issues. I am an absolute electrical newb. I played around yesterday with my multimeter and looking at some of the wiring. I have 5 leads coming out of the stator, only three of them are plugged up(a yellow, a blue/Wh, and a green/wh; one yellow and one blue/wh are not connected to anything). I also don’t have the “three yellows” that I read about. The R/R is cheap looking black plastic one, and the wiring may be suspect as well. There are four wires coming out of it. Not sure if they are accurate to color or not. I’m thinking of ordering a new R/R, as I’ve already got a new stator to install. That way I can know what I’ve done (new stator, new R/R), and can go from there. All of this electrical/wiring stuff is over my head and giving me a headache!

I’ve printed off all of the “stator Papers” and other quick tests things I’ve ran across. Hopefully I can get some things figured out soon!

 

[Redman]

...........
................ I also don’t have the “three yellows” that I read about. The R/R is cheap looking black plastic one, and the wiring may be suspect as well. There are four wires coming out of it. .............

Stators only need 3 wires.
The comment about 3 yellow wires would apply to most aftermarket stators.
Stock suzuki stators have differnt color wires to match the colors of the bike wiring harness.
But overall, the three wires of a stator can be swapped, doesnt really matter which on goes in what order, they are interchangable.

R/Rs typicall have 5 wires: the three for connection to stator in any order, the positive output (typicaly red) and the negitive (typically black). Some have a 6th wire that I will not confuse things by trying to describe.
You say your R/R has 4 wires, which I can understand if 3 are for the stator and one is the positive output and the case is the ground/negative.

Yep................ I definitely have some electrical charging system issues. ..................
.............................!

Aside from all the discussion about your wiring and the connections..............

Good that you have a meter.
Dont bother to tell us how far you rode, where you parked, how long you parked and what it sounded like when you tried to start it.
Tell us the battery voltage readings described in the "quick test' on Posplayers sig line.
Basically voltage with swtich off, swtich on, bike at idle and at 4000 rpm.

THen, then we can get int troubleshooting particular cause of any charging problem.


..

 

[Guest]

Stators only need 3 wires.
The comment about 3 yellow wires would apply to most aftermarket stators.
Stock suzuki stators have differnt color wires to match the colors of the bike wiring harness.
But overall, the three wires of a stator can be swapped, doesnt really matter which on goes in what order, they are interchangable.

R/Rs typicall have 5 wires: the three for connection to stator in any order, the positive output (typicaly red) and the negitive (typically black). Some have a 6th wire that I will not confuse things by trying to describe.
You say your R/R has 4 wires, which I can understand if 3 are for the stator and one is the positive output and the case is the ground/negative.








Aside from all the discussion about your wiring and the connections..............

Good that you have a meter.
Dont bother to tell us how far you rode, where you parked, how long you parked and what it sounded like when you tried to start it.
Tell us the battery voltage readings described in the "quick test' on Posplayers sig line.
Basically voltage with swtich off, swtich on, bike at idle and at 4000 rpm.

THen, then we can get int troubleshooting particular cause of any charging problem.


..

Thanks, Redman. I have definitely been burning the midnight oil on all of the electrical info in the Stator papers, Posplayers quick test and more. I’ve noticed that as soon as my revs get above 2k or so, the headlight dims a bit and as I keep teh revs at 4K or so, the light (and taillight; had it outside in teh dark last night and noticed the tailight subtley fluctuating) fluctuate intermittently in brightness.

Alright, After taking off the battery tender:

Key off = 12.9
Key on = 12.0
at idle = 12.5
at 2500rpm = 12.24
at 5000rpm = 12.29
(forgot to do key off return)

- Stator leads A-B-C at 5k rpms all above 75V. (Was around 23V at idle)
- I ‘ve cleaned many of the connections and made sure that the R/R + and - connections were good ( as best as I could, though not exhaustive).
- Per the Stator Papers 2, I checked the continuity of all of the R/R leads, and using the ohm setting on my multimeter, I was getting fluctuating numbers but was getting anywhere from 3.x to 6.x readings, which I believe points to a bad regulator.
-Noticed my little black regulator was hot as heck while I was doing all of my running engine checks. Only saw a part number on the back...something like US, with 3610 above it. Not sure where PO sourced it.

I know that I’m not great at electrics (buy I’m learning!), but trying to follow the direction here. Am pretty convinced a new R/R is in order. Pretty sure I’ll get the series Compufire one that posplayers recommends (though being over $200 is steep!.