No Spark either side till i release the starter button

[Guest]

Mission successful. I had to re-create the metal contact and I found a good spring out of a momentary switch that I pulled apart

 

[Guest]

Slowly I'm back to work on this project.
Got the switch back together.
Have not cleaned contacts other that a few wires in the headlamp assembly and the entire switch assembly since I took it apart.
Still no spark on either cylinder. None seen this time when releasing the button and having 12vdc direct to the coil leads.
Cranks fine.

Didn't expect much result as I've not put much into it , but did pull this cover and I don't find much on this Japan Ignition system.
What am I looking at here (other than the right side of my bike)


Also I'm noticing that the sidestand light is still on with the sidestand up and the key in the on position.
Manual states pause a C and oil and sidestand lights are on, but nothing about ON position.
I disconnected the leads to the sidestand, and the light is still on as well. May be normal for a 82.

alt

 

[Redman]

Slowly I'm back to work on this project.
Got the switch back together.
Have not cleaned contacts other that a few wires in the headlamp assembly and the entire switch assembly since I took it apart.
Still no spark on either cylinder. None seen this time when releasing the button and having 12vdc direct to
.
…

Also I'm noticing that the sidestand light is still on with the sidestand up and the key in the on position.
Manual states pause a C and oil and sidestand lights are on, but nothing about ON position.
I disconnected the leads to the sidestand, and the light is still on as well. May be normal for a 82.

alt

for no ignition I would say check voltage at
coils, and again while cranking starter.
Such as what you stated in original post. With that much voltage
drop, the voltage at coils is to low when cranking for
ignition to operate.
Do that test again now that have done the other work.



for the sidestand light:
the oil pressure switch makes the oil light and sidestand light come on. To prove that to yourself, either start bike, or crank till it builds pressure, or temperary pull connector off the oil pressure sensor .

 

[Redman]

You are looking at the ignition pickup for the electrical mic ignition, what used to be contact points (prior to 1980).

 

[bonanzadave]

starter pulls down the system voltage so far that the coils can't spark.

and the headlight too. Happened to my bike. I did the relay mod to the coils and it now hits instantly.

 

[Guest]

Loads of cleaning.. little or no change
Spent the last couple of days disconnecting pretty much everything I could and giving it a cleaning.
95% of the bike has little or no corrosion, but
found the rear left tail signal quite rusted.
Found the light/horn switches with a fair amount of copper corrosion.
Though I could not completely disassemble this due to the headlight switch not wanting to come off, I did spray about 1 can of CRC electronic cleaner and air through it. Not ruling it out, but it should be clean.

Some terminals just got a good shot of cleaner in them , but if I could remove the wire it was scotchbrited.
Pulled all cluster lights and headlight. Cleaned the connections, and left the bulbs out.

Still good drop.
Battery New 13.vdc
Coils on, no crank 10.4 vdc
Crank another 2vdc drop.

Directly pigtailing the coils to the starter solenoid side. about a 1.25 VDC drop.

Will do some more testing tomorrow try to figure out what wire may be the circuit in the drop, but if there's a place I'm missing, it must be in the lower hemisphere.
Will look into the mod perhaps as well, but would be bandaid likely since I don't know the source for sure. This mod I'm assuming. https://gsarchive.bwringer.com/bikecliff/images/coil_relay_mod.html

Alt

 

[Redman]

, , , , ,
Still good drop.
Battery New 13.vdc
Coils on, no crank 10.4 vdc
Crank another 2vdc drop..
..
..
Alt

All your connection cleaning is a good thing to do.

Have you determined if you voltage drop is mostly in the wiring from battery to fuse to ignition swith to fuse to coils

..... or is it the battery it self that is drooping? THe voltage droop when turn on the key makes me suspect so. Check battery voltage when turn on key, and again when cranking.

In your conection cleaning, there is a major suspect conection that is not so accessable, and that is in the wiring from the main fuse to the the ignition swtich where the output of the R/R ties in somewhere burried in the wiring harness, yah, somehere in the harness there the red wire from the R/R is tied into the other red wire. . . . . that seems to be where I was loosing a good amount of voltage. Never have tore apart the harness to find specifically where that is.

 

[Guest]

Since the positive side of the battery is hard to get to when the battery is installed, my tests have been from the battery / solenoid side.

Negative probe on the negative battery terminal.
Positive on the battery / solenoid side.
Key OFF.
12.96 volts.

Key ON. Same.
Probe put on coil + 10.4x VDC.
Cranking another 1.25is drops Low 9.xx vdc.

A pigtail wire run direct from battery/solenoid side 12.7x vdc .
Cranking about 1.2x VDC drop so in the mid 11.x vdc.

Now used to be when I released the starter button, I'd get a faint spark Now... nuttin. So this may be a new issue as an aside as I'd expect some spark with 12vdc at the coils.
I've only checked the right-side as it's 70 degrees and the Honda and I had to take our first ride on the street.

Only have 1 fuse as in in-line glass fuse. From battery to the wireloom somewhere in the middle, then I suspect it runs to the headlamp, but will need to track the wire diagram. May run a bypass for it to see if things change. If that's the issue, will likely just leave the bypass and snip the old one out.

Next items
Stator test again, Sanity check as it was fine a month ago, but will remove the cover and clean connections which I've not done.
Ignitor test which I've not done.
Coil test again as a Sanity check.

Alt

 

[Guest]

..... or is it the battery it self that is drooping? THe voltage droop when turn on the key makes me suspect so. Check battery voltage when turn on key, and again when cranking.

Tested this this am keeping the lead on the + solenoid / battery side when cranking,
Battery with OFF position 12.25 this am (cold am)
Battery in ON position 11.94
Voltage at cranking 10.4x.

Thanks
Alt

 

[salty_monk]

All of those figures are a bit low to be honest.... How new is your battery? We like the Motobatt ones on here.

Seems like a "coil relay mod" might also be in order as well as cleaning up all the connectors and switches. Good luck!

 

[Guest]

bat is 3 months old Walmart one.
Normally holds high 12vdc to lower 13 vdc.

Looking at the mods and some relays on Amaz.. for 12 30-40amp bosch style.
Reading the schematics and just need to figure out what mod I want. Do like High/Low on when on high and like the horn flashing lights as well, but will start with the coil one.
However, I suspect the no spark will continue till I find the other issue now since the coil mod and my test of putting + direct to the coils and no spark still are about the same - the relay being added.

Will look more into the bike when it's a touch warmer outside in the next day or 2.

Alt

 

[Guest]

Hope the formatting is not too goofy.

Got around to running some tests
Stator still tests out .7 OHMs on all 3 wires testing across and O.L when testing these to ground.

Recap of the issue
Still NO spark either side including when releasing the starter button which as previously posted worked till I cleaned every terminal

Tests run


For all Tests below the Batter Voltage was around 13.8x - 13.9vdc with the key off.
The tests were done by disconnecting various components to isolate where the drain is.
Headlamp was disconnected
All lamps remove from console.
Stop, Tail, Turn bulbs still installed.


All connections cleaned and greased with Dielectric grease.

I'm hoping this is the in the Coils vs the Ignitor but below are the numbers and the tests done.




Bear in-mind each test number set should only be compared to itself and not across tests as Voltage changes / temperature / time all affected the starting numbers.
__________________________
Test 1
With everything plugged in (minus the above) (from memory so these may be fudged some but the issue is the big VDC drop.
Battery changed
Trickle Charger on with 2amp 12vdc setting.


My Key Off voltages is around 13.90
Key On
13.3 at Battery

Left
ow + 11.7
w - 11.5

Right
ow Coil + 11.6
Yb Coil - 11.5


So way too much drop and the below is used to isolate.


__________________________
Test 2
Disconnected the Ignitor Harness and test at each terminal
Key ON
Battery 13.5
COILS

Left
w 13.5
ow 13.5

Right
Yb 13.5
ow 13.5




HARNESS
W 13.5
Yb 13.2
OW 13.5


__________________________

Test 3
Ignitor Harness Plugged in as well as the remaining tests it's plugged in.
- W and YB (L and R Coil signal wires) disconnected at Coils
Battery 13.2


COILS
Left
w 13.11
ow13.11

Right
yb 13.11
ow 13.11


Harness
OW 13.11

__________________________
Test 4
YB right ONLY connection
YB (Right) connected, W (left) disconnected
To isolate if this was a specific coil I disconnected each independent wire.
Battery 12.63
Note the YB voltage of 1.032.

COILS
Left
w 11..64
ow 11.64

Right
Yb 1.032
ow 11.70








Test 5
W (left ONLY connection.
YB (Right) Disconnected, W (left) Connected
To isolate if this was a specific coil I disconnected each independent wire.


Battery 12.86
Note the W voltage of 1.0

COILS
Left
w 1.0
ow 11.54

Right
Yb 11.56
ow 11.57


Harness
Ow 11.60

 

[Cipher]

Gosh I know .7 ohms is lowish but shouldn't there be infinite resistance from those points to ground?

Anyhoo ebay is likely replete with the whole module you need on the handlebar

 

[Guest]

Gosh I know .7 ohms is lowish but shouldn't there be infinite resistance from those points to ground?

Anyhoo ebay is likely replete with the whole module you need on the handlebar

I think the stator is fine
Limit between each terminal to another terminal has a range of that is within 0.5 to 2.0 Ohms
Ideally you want sameness if I'm not mistaken.
Stator Papers has some info on page 2. http://www.thegsresources.com/statorpapers2.php
O.L is infinite resistance. so it's a open load.

I suspect the Ignitor.
Since the voltage is good till either signal wire for left or right coil is hooked up. Hard to believe both coils would fault the same way, but will wait till some experts chime in on what their thoughts are.
Still need to to the ignitor test from Clymers since I don't have the official Service Manual.

Provided it is the ignitor, I may opt to replace it with a Dyna system. Saw a few using 400 systems to dump the factory ignition and ignitor assembly. Maybe someone here has done the same.

Alt

 

[Gorminrider]

A link for the Real shop manual is HERE compliments of VGPlay:
https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?258200-GS450-Official-Service-Manual-PDF

 

[Gorminrider]

Otherwise, be aware that:
The ignitor works by interrupting the coil circuit. When the signal generator produces a small pulse, the ignitor interrupts the coils' supply THIS produces the spark. Very similar to points. Not a "CDI".
So, the ignitor is "in series" circuit with the coils therefore the coils will never have a vd equalling BAT. because the ignitor is another resistance in the same circuit.

the signal generators are very important. No spark without them. The ignitors ground wire and the kill switch are also very important.(add: and the spark plug caps..there's stuff up inside of them)


-Most multimeters testing for low resistance need to be "zeroed". Cross the leads, note what meter says. Subtract this from any low resistance reading.
-The stator has nothing to do with ignition. However, when the bike is running, the stator supplies the power. IDEALLY the battery is only there to start the bike.

 

[pdqford]

+1 What Gorminrider points out:

There is no voltage drop if current is not flowing in the circuit being tested.

(I don’t know exactly what happens inside the ignitor box, but with it disconnected I suspect you are measuring open circuit voltage as opposed to voltage drop.)

What bike are we discussing?

 

[Guest]

1982 GS450A

Correct I don't expect a voltage drop when the offender is removed.
Though the signal wires were only removed to see if the drop was external of the starting system which seems something between bat - Ignitor - coil signal wires. appears to be the area.
.
Since no test was done with cranking the bike over the stator would not be a factor in the drop unless there was some odd ground short, but I supplied it's number to show I'm not shorting out for the stator.

I too would not expect BAT voltage at the coils + - connections, but we seem to have a big drop. Too low (per previous replies) to allow spark at the plugs.

All tests done with plug caps and plugs on the bike and sparkplugs grounded or near enough to the cylinder head.

 

[Gorminrider]

Recap of the issue
Still NO spark either side including when releasing the starter button which as previously posted worked till I cleaned every terminal

Keep it simple. If it worked before you "cleaned every terminal" I'd carefully revisit that before wanking coil voltages....

otherwise, simple bench tests are applying a touch of power to a coil alone. It will spark when power is removed. The Black box is more difficult. there's a test that duplicates the signal generator's short signal with a flashlight battery but both are reliable components and given correct connections, don't commonly fail without real abuse on these bikes.

Charge the battery up. check for spark with the motor spinning. It should spark. Sparks don't have to light the room like an arc light to work. If you see any, it'll probably start the bike given fuel and compression.

Your coils are intended to work even while the starter motor is severely loading the puny battery. They work well enough at voltages below "ideals".

(though I like grimly's point which might be helping when the battery is short of breath. ...Anyways, it's not good to run the starter too long. Short bursts will supply the Grimly Effect and a short rest is a good thing between spins too.

 

[Guest]

Keep it simple. If it worked before you "cleaned every terminal" I'd carefully revisit that before wanking coil voltages....

otherwise, simple bench tests are applying a touch of power to a coil alone. It will spark when power is removed. The Black box is more difficult. there's a test that duplicates the signal generator's short signal with a flashlight battery but both are reliable components and given correct connections, don't commonly fail without real abuse on these bikes.

Charge the battery up. check for spark with the motor spinning. It should spark. Sparks don't have to light the room like an arc light to work. If you see any, it'll probably start the bike given fuel and compression.

Your coils are intended to work even while the starter motor is severely loading the puny battery. They work well enough at voltages below "ideals".

(though I like grimly's point which might be helping when the battery is short of breath. ...Anyways, it's not good to run the starter too long. Short bursts will supply the Grimly Effect and a short rest is a good thing between spins too.

Okay, I'm mentally prepping myself for another crack a this just to see if the coils will spark
Based on the above benchtest comment I think this will work,

Think I will leave the coils on the bike.
Test 1 at a time,
Pull the sparkplugs out of the head but connect it to the cap / coil combo being tested and lay them on the head so they have a good ground.
Disconnect the signal wires, + and - side
Apply 12vdc to the + terminal on the coil and then pull the power lead off. (tapping it with 12vdc)
The expectation is that it should spark each time I pull off the power source.

FYI I don't run the starter long. If it won't spark the first few seconds, I see no point in cranking.
Also note. pretty good with most motors (cars, small engines, airplanes) so I'm more than familiar what the spark should look like or feel like if I'm on the business end, so there is no question of no spark on this bike, but I will admit, this is making me feel like I need some crayons.

Alt