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OK, this cloud of smoke on startup has got to go, how do I fix it?

  • Thread starter Thread starter donimo
  • Start date Start date
D

donimo

Guest
Hi all, I have mentioned it in a couple other posts, but I NEED to fix this. It isn't the "little puff or 2" of blue that all older vehicles like my chevy van does.

It is, you start it, its fine for about 5 seconds, then the blue smoke starts up out the left pipe and comes out like a 2 stroke left in a barn for 5 years and started up with 4x too much oil in the mix. It does this for a good 30sec-2min (depending on how long it sat) and sends a cloud across town that kills birds and burns a hole in the atmosphere, you may be able to see it on google earth if you look hard.

I guess its valve seals from what I have read, how do I fix that? is there a way to do it without gutting the top end off the bike? I don't have lots of free time right now, but I have to ride this bike every day and it is embarassing, I know functionally it doesnt matter, but functionally I don't have to wear pants when its warm out either...
 
Yep, probably valve seals.

I've never done it, but I've heard of using compressed air to keep the valves from dropping down into the cylinders (must be at TDC), removing the springs and then installing new seals. This technique has the advantage of not removing the head. You'll also need to devise a method to keep the compressed air from turning over the motor.

If it doesn't work, you'll need to pop the head off to replace the seals. If it was me that's what I'd do anyway, but just thought I'd throw the above idea out there.
 
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Most likely valve stem seals but no guarantee. If it were my bike I'd pull the head and cylinder so everything can be properly inspected.
 
is taking the head off hard? I know its just a few bolts etc, but what about the cam chain? Is it super easy "with a few helpful tips" or could I get myself in a whole mess of trouble?

I already started a job (valve adjust) and had it backfire because the valve cover was a) glued on with some sort of space age silicone from the future and b) totally different than the gasket I bought for it, so a 1-2 hour job became a 2 week job due to me having only sporadic hours here and there to work on it...

1) so is it at least 80% chance its the seals?

2) is taking the head off and replacing the seals something I can do in 4 hours or so, including the odd snag?

3) I heard of a "rope" method into the spark plug hole? does this work?
 
More like 98% chance it's valve stem seals. Had that really bad on my old car. so bad they were in pieces before I touched them to change them.

I've done both air and rope to do them and I'd strongly recommend rope over air to hold the valves up... 1)fewer things to buy (compressed air to spark plug adapter, source of compressed air) 2) no worries about turning the engine over 3) not noisy 4) not iffy (not enough pressure or jar the valve to unseat it and now you have to get it out again). 3/8" white nylon braided rope works great. here's a pic using it on my old car: http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c265/kamesama980/technical/?action=view&current=DSC00035-1.jpg

summary: put the piston at BDC (before compression) stuff as much rope as you can in, then rotate the piston up then back down. then stuff more rope in, rotate it up, get the retainers off, replace the seals, etc
 
WITH THE MANUAL IN HAND, its a pretty straight forward process. You'll need a few specialty items, but those can actually be made for a fraction of the cost of buying them. If you dont plan on rebuilding motors on the regular, i would build them rather than buy them (hell id build em anyway cause im cheap) Valve spring compressor is essentially nothing more than a C-clamp and a piece of pipe large enough in diameter to depress the caps and you cut a window in it to work thru to remove the retainers. Again, with the manual this is not hard, albeing time consuming. I would chance to guess since you say it stopps smoking once warm that it is indeed the valve seals. Try parking it on the center stand a couple times and see if the smoke is less or the same. The OTHER possibility is a bad valve guide, and while not completely out of the realm, i would chance to guess that its likely NOT the case. My 1100G smoked a bit after sitting for a day or two on the side stand. I didnt really let it bother me much, and never pulled the head, as the amount of oil burned (less than a half quart every 1000 miles) was not alarming for an air cooled motor, and untill something required more attention inside, i figured its not hurting anything, so why bother.
 
TheCafeKid said:
WITH THE MANUAL IN HAND, its a pretty straight forward process. You'll need a few specialty items, but those can actually be made for a fraction of the cost of buying them. If you dont plan on rebuilding motors on the regular, i would build them rather than buy them (hell id build em anyway cause im cheap) Valve spring compressor is essentially nothing more than a C-clamp and a piece of pipe large enough in diameter to depress the caps and you cut a window in it to work thru to remove the retainers. Again, with the manual this is not hard, albeing time consuming. I would chance to guess since you say it stopps smoking once warm that it is indeed the valve seals. Try parking it on the center stand a couple times and see if the smoke is less or the same. The OTHER possibility is a bad valve guide, and while not completely out of the realm, i would chance to guess that its likely NOT the case. My 1100G smoked a bit after sitting for a day or two on the side stand. I didnt really let it bother me much, and never pulled the head, as the amount of oil burned (less than a half quart every 1000 miles) was not alarming for an air cooled motor, and untill something required more attention inside, i figured its not hurting anything, so why bother.
Click to expand...

It's ALWAYS parked on its center stand at home, at work on its side stand, no appreciable difference. It smokes MORE afte being on the center stand, technically, but that is after it has been sitting for 12-14 hours overnight, whereas its only 8 hours at work on the sidestand...

It is WAY too much to ignore, even if it is a teaspoon every 50000000000km it is really embarassing to start up my bike and have 30 seconds of thick blue smoke pour out of my bike, the parking lot is in full view of the entire hospital I work at and I cant take the comments after only ONE day so far of riding to work ( you shouldnt ride that, you need to fix that blah blah)

I actually might have a spring compressor for a car around somewhere, maybe not hard to say, its been about 10 years since I remember seeing it...
 
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kamesama980 said:
More like 98% chance it's valve stem seals. Had that really bad on my old car. so bad they were in pieces before I touched them to change them.

I've done both air and rope to do them and I'd strongly recommend rope over air to hold the valves up... 1)fewer things to buy (compressed air to spark plug adapter, source of compressed air) 2) no worries about turning the engine over 3) not noisy 4) not iffy (not enough pressure or jar the valve to unseat it and now you have to get it out again). 3/8" white nylon braided rope works great. here's a pic using it on my old car: http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c265/kamesama980/technical/?action=view&current=DSC00035-1.jpg

summary: put the piston at BDC (before compression) stuff as much rope as you can in, then rotate the piston up then back down. then stuff more rope in, rotate it up, get the retainers off, replace the seals, etc
Click to expand...

I have a bunch of that rope already...but it may be dirty, hell its cheap, Ill go get some, first I need to find some seals, OEM? Aftermarket? bubblegum?
 
Not sure about the TSCC engines, but say on my GS550, if you didn't pull the head, what would you put the c-clamp around when compressing the springs? It would have to be a mighty big c-clamp! When I've seen that trick done before (compressed air/rope), a compressor that clamped onto the springs themselves was used. Not possible on the 2V/cyl engines that I can see. Do the TSCCs not similarly have the valve springs completely surrounded in a hole?
 
mike_of_bbg said:
Not sure about the TSCC engines, but say on my GS550, if you didn't pull the head, what would you put the c-clamp around when compressing the springs? It would have to be a mighty big c-clamp! When I've seen that trick done before (compressed air/rope), a compressor that clamped onto the springs themselves was used. Not possible on the 2V/cyl engines that I can see. Do the TSCCs not similarly have the valve springs completely surrounded in a hole?
Click to expand...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/75842363@N00/731203915/

this is what mine looks like, its gonna be a beyotch to get a tool in there...
 
So, I want to order these seals ASAP, OEM or the ones from partsnmore.com good enough? any difference?
 
never mind, just ordered them from suzuki, 3 times as much ($7 each x8) but whatever, OEM is OEM.
 
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Make sure to oil the seal & valve stem before you put it together. Don't use reg grease, Or at least use synthetic grease (rubber safe)
 
Getting the springs off the valve is easy. With the valves immobilized by rope in the hole you can release the keepers with a large socket and a hammer. Tap down on the socket over the retainer and the keepers will pop off. They might fly far so put a rag over the socket and hit the socket through the rag,

Reassembly is the Hillary. You have to squeeze that spring farther than normal to get both keepers in ( make damn sure that they are in correctly) and then slowly release the spring. This is where some ingenuity comes it, for you are going to have to fabricate something that can deliver over 100 lbs to that spring carefully.

Most tools for on head removal need a lot of clearance around the spring, that doesn't work for the GS head. I would pull the head and do it with a tool designed for the job. I made one from a wood clamp that worked fine. You can replace the head gasket, and exhaust gaskets while cleaning the head up real good. On your twin this should be a pretty easy job, you are not pulling the cylinders after all.

Go for a head pull. Should be a weekend job at most.
 
Could this possibly be a stuck ring considering it hasn't been ridden much recently?

Dan :)
 
I would suggest pulling the head too since you will be removing the cams anyways. It will cost you a head gasket extra.

Otherwise, I would pull the cams, flip the adjusters up, then see if you can reinstall a cam without interference. If not, then you would need to remove the adjusters from their shaft. Either way, the reinstalled cam would be your leverage point. I would then get a cheap socket that fits the top of the spring retainer cap and a longish pry bar (16"?). I would cut scallops out of the side(s) of the socket so you can access the retainers. I would get my trusty 3/8" breaker bar and use 4 hose clamps to fasten it to the prybar so the socket will meet the cap. You will then have easy, smooth pressure to remove and reinstall the retainers. If you are worried about the cam lobes, put one of those fake credit cards from the mail in there.

You would have to be very careful doing this. If you rotate the crank with 1 cam bolted down, you may bend a valve. If both pistons are away from TDC, then you should be able to bolt/unbolt 1 cam. To keep the cam chain from jamming, you use a coat hanger loop up to the frame.

It might be difficult to cut the sides out of a cheap socket.

It's sounding easier to pull the head.

;)
 
eccccchhhhh

this is sounding huuuuge!

ugh, I don't know what do do now, I can't have my bike down for more than a weekend, and never having done that before it really intimidating...
 
Take a deep breath, it's not that bad.

First tools. Do you have a torque wrench, proper sockets, etc?

Rather than use a socket, a piece of PVC pipe will work for the tool. You can easily cut the side out of it and use needlenose to get the keepers in A bit of grease makes them sticky so they behave.

I saw a guy use the frame as a staging point to press down on valves. It was a Kawasaki but similar to yours. With the engine in the frame you might be able to do it.

Or just pull the head. See if the exhaust manifold bolts will come out , don't force them if they resist too much or they will break. If the 4 bolts for the exhaust can be extracted then pop the carbs, remove the valve cover, a few nuts and bolts all around, and then remove the cams.

A block of wood to hold the cam chain and it's off. Really should be easy enough. And we will provide help, most guys here live for this s#it and love pictures of the process.
 
so of course I order the seals for $50 and then this morning it only smokes maybe 2% as much as it has the last 40 startups...

I didnt use as much choke, but still I am sure I have done that before...
 
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