Old GS handling limitations

[Guest]

a track day is, in my opinion, the best thing you can do on a motorcycle. You will learn more in one day than in....years of street riding. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.

I'll let you in on a secret. My 1100E is more fun to ride on the street than the GSXR1000 because it has more character and is more challenging to ride well. A lot more comfortable, too. The GSXR offers basically seamless perfection (at my skill level) and astounding performance but it is also somewhat boring when just trundling along at typical street speeds. Even on the track I am not fast enough to make it sweat, so it is really wasted on the street.

If you ever get the chance to do a track day you should try it. One of the biggest things you will learn is that what you thought was fast on the street is nothing like truly fast and if you are riding hard on the street you are taking huge chances and still not really going very fast overall. Once I started riding track days I found my street riding actually slowed down some because I knew what fast really was and that I couldn't get there without risking life and limb on the street.


Mark

 

[Guest]

Had the exact same reaction when I started racing. Even stupid fast street rides are nothing like race pace, and I ended up going more slowly on the street because there's no way to replicate that sensation there without it being incredibly dangerous.

I have not raced on pavement, but I have raced MX. I found track time (on or off road) was also good for slowing down on the street because it gives you an outlet for the aggression and competitive urges that sometimes foster idiocy on the street. Once you have raced or done track time and been able to go as fast as you want, pass as many people as you want and get it all out of your system there is less remaining to cause testosterone problems on the street.

The track (all of them) is also very humbling, which seems to also be good for sedate street riding. You may think you're one step behind Carmichael or Rossi but you will always find someone able to completely embarrass you on the track. I've had a 12 year old on an 80cc two stroke kick my a$$ all over my local MX track when I was riding a 450, that will bring you back down in a hurry...


Mark

 

[zuluwiz]

One thing I have not heard mentioned is tire pressure. In the old tests of these bikes back when they were new, the writers often found that increasing tire pressure by 3-4 pounds over what the manual says would make handling better. Have you looked at that yet?

 

[glib]

One thing I have not heard mentioned is tire pressure. In the old tests of these bikes back when they were new, the writers often found that increasing tire pressure by 3-4 pounds over what the manual says would make handling better. Have you looked at that yet?

I did notice that the manual and the sticker under the seat do not match the sticker on the frame.
I've been running 34-36 in front and 38-40 in the rear. I think that's closer to what is on the sticker on the frame--and I don't know why it's different. I feel like 24-28 (manual for front) is really low. Hard for me to say though since I've never had balanced suspension prior to these changes.

 

[glib]

Boom. Just installed this fork brace. They are expensive. Glad I had this one on the shelf from a bike I sold.

062FB282-852E-4EB2-805B-EE54F0B384DB by Gary L, on Flickr

 

[Steve]

You have to be careful with the tire pressures on the stickers. :-k

Back when the tires were made, they were rated to carry a certain amount of weight at a certain air pressure. Today's tires might carry the same amount of weight, but require more pressure to do it. If you run what the sticker says, the tires will be underinflated.

I don't know of any magic formula that will calculate the 'new' pressure that you need, but have always gone by the "pressure rise" formula. The pressure will always rise when a tire gets warm, and it gets warm by riding it. Set your pressure to something easy to remember. 30 psi is usually a decent starting point. Go for a ride. At least 20 miles, just to make sure the tires are good and warm. Check the pressure on the warm tires. The pressure should be about 10% higher. Some say the rear tire should be about 15% higher, but let's stick with 10% for now. If your pressure is more than 10% higher, it's because the tire was flexing too much, because it was under inflated. Adjust the pressure by the amount it was off. Example: you measure 35 psi. Since you were expecting 33, add 2 psi. You can do that cold or warm, so you are looking for 37 psi right after that ride or wait until the next day and inflate to 32. Do another ride. This time, you are looking for 35.2 psi. Repeat as necessary.

Also be aware that if you carry a passenger, you need to add air to carry the additional weight. Yes, that requires a couple more rides, with the passenger.

Those pressures should work for that brand and model tire for your bike. If you ever change tire brands, check the weight rating and inflation pressure of the new tires, you may have to do the process again.

.

 

[bonanzadave]

I dont want to minimize the importance of tire pressure but it did nothing for me trying to sort out a high speed weave. At 80 + mph it feels like the frame is hinged and moves back and forth. Very un-nerving. One of the many attempts to "fix" it was brand new tires. Nope. Same weave. and then multiple combinations of tire pressures, front and rear, cold and warm, from 28-48psi. Made no difference.

I did fix the weave though......set the tires at 35 cold (they go to 39 warm) and don't go over 80 !

Just installed this fork brace.

I have that fork brace on mine. Didn't like the crossover piece cause even with the 4 bolts as tight as I dared get them it still seemed to flex. So I cut a new one at work. Yes, I stole the Yosh symbol.

Fast fwd to the 4:00 mark....

 

[glib]

I dont want to minimize the importance of tire pressure but it did nothing for me trying to sort out a high speed weave. At 80 + mph it feels like the frame is hinged and moves back and forth. Very un-nerving. One of the many attempts to "fix" it was brand new tires. Nope. Same weave. and then multiple combinations of tire pressures, front and rear, cold and warm, from 28-48psi. Made no difference.

I did fix the weave though......set the tires at 35 cold (they go to 39 warm) and don't go over 80 !




I have that fork brace on mine. Didn't like the crossover piece cause even with the 4 bolts as tight as I dared get them it still seemed to flex. So I cut a new one at work. Yes, I stole the Yosh symbol.

Fast fwd to the 4:00 mark....

OMG I want to play with that cutter! I mean I want to safely use it for it's intended purpose.

Nice result! I had to file my crossover piece to get it tight.

 

[glib]

Woo hoo! Nice ride yesterday. The setup adjustments, Works Shocks, and fork brace really impressed me. Sadly, there were wet spots and gravel on Hwy 26 that made for a tense ride in places and my new front tire has now arrived so that will be my last ride on this one. Fun season comin up!

 

[zuluwiz]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is tire pressure. Back when these bikes were new, the magazine testers would complain of wiggling in the rear end that would clear up like magic when the tires were pumped up just 3 or 4 psi. Certainly worth thinking about.

 

[glib]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is tire pressure. Back when these bikes were new, the magazine testers would complain of wiggling in the rear end that would clear up like magic when the tires were pumped up just 3 or 4 psi. Certainly worth thinking about.

Steve went into some detail just down the page but it is good to know that pressure was an issue even from the factory. I did think that the factory tire pressure recommendations seemed low.

 

[Steve]

Steve went into some detail just down the page ...

Evidently you still have your setting on the forum defaults, which are VERY hard to read.

- Click on the "Forum" button in the upper left corner.
- Click on the "Forum Actions" tab, then the "General Settings" option.
- Scroll down a bit to the blue line that says "Thread Display Options"
- In the "Thread Display Mode:" option, select "Linear - Oldest First"
- In the "Number of Posts to Show per Page" option, select "Show 40 Posts per Page"
- Scroll down to the bottom, select "Save Changes"

You can now read threads as they happen, not jumping all over the place, and witn 40 posts showing on each page, there is a LOT less page-flipping when reading longer threads. This is only a drawback if you have a slower internet connection that might take a while to load longer threads, especially if they include a lot of pictures.

.

 

[glib]

Evidently you still have your setting on the forum defaults, which are VERY hard to read.

- Click on the "Forum" button in the upper left corner.
- Click on the "Forum Actions" tab, then the "General Settings" option.
- Scroll down a bit to the blue line that says "Thread Display Options"
- In the "Thread Display Mode:" option, select "Linear - Oldest First"
- In the "Number of Posts to Show per Page" option, select "Show 40 Posts per Page"
- Scroll down to the bottom, select "Save Changes"

You can now read threads as they happen, not jumping all over the place, and witn 40 posts showing on each page, there is a LOT less page-flipping when reading longer threads. This is only a drawback if you have a slower internet connection that might take a while to load longer threads, especially if they include a lot of pictures.

.

I see what you mean. I got used to the order but the 40 posts per page is especially helpful.

 

[bwringer]

You also have to remember that, since time immemorial, Suzuki has generously provided employment as test riders for retired horse racing jockeys and anorexic ballerinas.

Thanks to the sensitive derrieres of these brave flyweights, some Suzuki motorcycles have arrived on these shores sagging through 2/3 of their suspension travel under the weight of the bike alone, with no rider, fuel, or luggage aboard, and to this very day, almost all arrive sadly undersprung.

Anyway, the tire pressure recommendations on vintage Suzukis were based on... well, no one knows exactly. But the pressures in the manuals and on the frame stickers are extremely low, especially with modern tires. Even back in the day, as mentioned earlier, corn-fed American (and wurst-fed European) journalists had to increase the tire pressures to get reasonable handling.

The "10% rise" test Steve mentioned is a great way to sort out the best pressures for your riding and your tires.


Tangential rant: Car manufacturers do the same thing too -- in order to make their cars feel cushy and smooth, the tire pressures on the door jamb stickers are often ridiculously low. It's less common nowadays since mileage is such an overriding concern. If you remember the Firestone tire/Ford Explorer debacle a while back, one root cause of the failure was that the factory tire pressure was something ridiculous like 28psi so the truck wouldn't ride like, y'know, a truck. After just a few months of the usual complete neglect, the tires would be down to 23-24psi or worse. Combine that with Firestone's nonexistent quality control at the time and you had a recipe for overheating, delamination, and blowouts.

 

[Downs]

When I moved up to 34 rear and 32 front on the GS the bike handled much better than it had before.

 

[glib]

You also have to remember that, since time immemorial, Suzuki has generously provided employment as test riders for retired horse racing jockeys and anorexic ballerinas.

Thanks to the sensitive derrieres of these brave flyweights, some Suzuki motorcycles have arrived on these shores sagging through 2/3 of their suspension travel under the weight of the bike alone, with no rider, fuel, or luggage aboard, and to this very day, almost all arrive sadly undersprung.

Anyway, the tire pressure recommendations on vintage Suzukis were based on... well, no one knows exactly. But the pressures in the manuals and on the frame stickers are extremely low, especially with modern tires. Even back in the day, as mentioned earlier, corn-fed American (and wurst-fed European) journalists had to increase the tire pressures to get reasonable handling.

The "10% rise" test Steve mentioned is a great way to sort out the best pressures for your riding and your tires.


Tangential rant: Car manufacturers do the same thing too -- in order to make their cars feel cushy and smooth, the tire pressures on the door jamb stickers are often ridiculously low. It's less common nowadays since mileage is such an overriding concern. If you remember the Firestone tire/Ford Explorer debacle a while back, one root cause of the failure was that the factory tire pressure was something ridiculous like 28psi so the truck wouldn't ride like, y'know, a truck. After just a few months of the usual complete neglect, the tires would be down to 23-24psi or worse. Combine that with Firestone's nonexistent quality control at the time and you had a recipe for overheating, delamination, and blowouts.

Many times I’ve thought that Japanese engineers designed cars to be worked on by tiny-handed mechanics. Maybe the same bunch are your test riders.

 

[glib]

Back on post #33 in this thread, I mentioned that I had broken a spring retainer on one of my Ohlins shocks:

"I broke the spring retainer on one of my Ohlins. I ordered it from the only place I could find it which is in the UK so it'll be at least two weeks before I get them back on the bike."

Fortunately I had just rebuilt my Works Performance shocks so I installed them. However, I wanted to take the opportunity to compliment the supplier of the new spring retainer. Sadly, the first order was lost in the mail somewhere between the UK and my address. The seller, Ben, owner of Classic and Vintage Suspension, contacted me immediately upon getting my message requesting status. He offered to cancel the sale, (it was through Ebay), and ship another spring retainer if it didn't arrive in a time frame that satisfied me. Having already installed my Works shocks, I had the luxury of waiting and didn't want Ben to incur unnecessary costs so we waited to see if the package would arrive. Ben contacted me regularly--even from his vacation to this side of the pond--to make sure I was ok with waiting and continued to offer a refund. I could tell he is an honorable guy and we agreed to wait a bit longer. A week ago Ben messaged that he would refund my money and send me a replacement NO charge--and to just make a charitable contribution of my choosing for the value of the sale. I received the package yesterday and installed the spring retainer this morning (the clean one on the right in the picture).

So please consider Ben Penny at www.classicandvintagesuspension.co.uk to be a reliable and honorable resource.

Ohlins w new spring retainer by Gary L, on Flickr

 

[80GS850GBob]

I've gotta ask.....it was mentioned here that measuring suspension travel was the ticket to setting sag, front and rear. On the rear, where the swing arm can yield 5" of travel but the shocks are an actual 3" of travel, is the more accurate way of checking rear travel sag "on" the shocks, or by measuring suspension travel?
I was taught the old school way of a zip tie on the fork tube or the rear shock shaft....measure the free travel spec on the shock unweighted, note the amount of movement once a load is placed(rider...riders) and see the difference.

 

[glib]

I've gotta ask.....it was mentioned here that measuring suspension travel was the ticket to setting sag, front and rear. On the rear, where the swing arm can yield 5" of travel but the shocks are an actual 3" of travel, is the more accurate way of checking rear travel sag "on" the shocks, or by measuring suspension travel?
I was taught the old school way of a zip tie on the fork tube or the rear shock shaft....measure the free travel spec on the shock unweighted, note the amount of movement once a load is placed(rider...riders) and see the difference.

I had an exchange with Rich Desmond starting at post 35 in this thread that I believe relates to your question. I had assumed that the relationship between the movement of the shock was proportional to the axle travel--but it's not (talking about the rear here). Due to the forward angle of the shock, the axle moves MORE in relation to the shock as the two move up. Rich suggested my math was off and sent me back to my yellow pad. (It was my geometry that was off, by the way ). In the rear, measure the sag by axle travel--or at least vertical movement from a consistent point. But the shock shaft measurement would not give the same result. In the front, the zip tie on the fork tube should work because the front axle is moving at the same angle as the fork.

 

[80GS850GBob]

Agreed....front axle travel is linear to the shock...rear travel is not since the rear shock(s) are in a lever relationship and not linear....think fulcrum point(s).