Proper way to re-torque a bolt.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Do you always start your comments with "in my opinion"? No, of course not. We all just read and make our own decisions. If I sound like I'm stating 'facts', they're only in return of your 'facts'.
At least we learned some things here that you helped emphasize.
Fact: Click type wrenches are a better tool.
Fact: Taking your chain off is the best way to clean it.
Fact: You have lower standards when working on a bike.
Fact: You get upset trying to defend your lower standards.
Remember Swanny, open mind, you'll be better off.

 

[moto_dan]

Fact: Click type wrenches are a better tool.
quote]

Not IMO, if you are speaking of accuracy, but if you are speaking of ease of use then I would agree. After following this thread and reading you and Swanny going back and forth I have to offer my .02 worth. Click type Torque wrenches need frequent calibration, beam type may need there pointer repostitioned to 0, but you don't have to send it out for calibration. Read the following post from another in a different forum. I found it interesting:
http://yarchive.net/car/torquewrench.html

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Thanks for the info. Honestly, I had no idea this topic would cause so much friction. I think the back and forth with Swanny was just two stubborn people with different opinions. He said things that irritated me and I said things that irritated him. I wish it had not happened.
I consider everyone here a friend. I've never had a negative experience at the GSR, until this.
Swanny says he's done with this topic, but if he's reading this I would like to apologize for the bad feelings. I'll send a PM too.

I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

 

[Anonymous]

...I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

Don't worry, Keith. we all get a bit "sideways" sometimes. Your points about loosening the bolt/nut first, and also cleaning dirty/corroded threads, are very useful.

Simon Waters

 

[wrench]

...I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

Don't worry, Keith. we all get a bit "sideways" sometimes. Your points about loosening the bolt/nut first, and also cleaning dirty/corroded threads, are very useful.

Simon Waters

I'll second that.. it really helped me, hey thats what the Tech Forums all about
John.

 

[Anonymous]

Simon Waters wrote:
KEITH KRAUSE wrote:

...I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

Don't worry, Keith. we all get a bit "sideways" sometimes. Your points about loosening the bolt/nut first, and also cleaning dirty/corroded threads, are very useful.

Simon Waters

I'll second that.. it really helped me, hey thats what the Tech Forums all about
John.

Make that a third. I'll make this public also as the reply I sent to Keith in the PM you won't get to read.

The short story is that we all learned something here, especially myself. I can be abrasive at times, I know that. I think in my case it comes with age - ever see 'Grumpy Old Men'?

Sorry if I offended you Keith.

I don't hold grudges, and to tell you the truth, saying what I feel may get me into trouble, but it keeps me sane. Everyone stay sane and keep posting.

 

[Anonymous]

I personally like the old pointer type of torque wrench. It gives you a better idea if the bolt that you are tightening is going to snap or not. The pointer on the torque wrench should continuously move as you are tightening the bolt. If it stops moving and your still turning that usually is a good indication that the bolt that you are tightening is stretching and is about ready to snap. The ones that click don’t let you know until it’s too late.

When they list the torque settings in the shop manuals they usually list a range that is suitable, this indicates to me that it is not so much the foot lbs or foot inches that is important but it’s actually that they be set sufficiently tight, and if there is a number of bolts that need to be torqued to a specific range then what is important that the range be met and that the bolts be torqued down to within a few pounds of each other. I really believe that the old pointer type of torque wrench will do this with great success.

Roman

 

[Anonymous]

Some good points Roman. Torque is not an exact figure. As I said before, what we really are after is the stretch of the bolt and torgue is just the handiest way to cross-reference to that.

There are some engine builders who actually measure the stretch on specific bolts in a test fixture and then measure the torque required to get that figure. Then during assembly they can get it exactly right. This is a bit much for us, but when you are dealing with a 250k dollar motor, nothing is overlooked.

Remember - stretch is good - too much stretch is bad. How much stretch do you have! :lol:

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

I personally like the old pointer type of torque wrench. It gives you a better idea if the bolt that you are tightening is going to snap or not. The pointer on the torque wrench should continuously move as you are tightening the bolt. If it stops moving and your still turning that usually is a good indication that the bolt that you are tightening is stretching and is about ready to snap. The ones that click don?t let you know until it?s too late.

Hi Roman.
I don't understand this explanation. Neither torque wrench is going to give you a better idea if you're about to snap a bolt. As you tighten, one points to the desired setting you want, then you stop. As you tighten with the other, it clicks, to let you know you've reached the desired setting, then you stop. In either case, why would you continue to tighten the bolt when you can tell that the setting has been achieved?
On a pointer wrench, the pointer will NEVER stop as long as you are applying more torque. It will not stop moving until you have broken the bolt or you have flexed it to the far side of its scale, if possible. So to say that the pointer can stop moving as you continue to tighten, is impossible.
And with a click type wrench, you say they won't warn you if the bolt is about to break, until it's too late. They do warn you, by clicking. If you continue to tighten the bolt after the click... why?
And since it's been brought up, I think the chance to over torque or break a bolt is greater with the pointer type because you have to rely on eyesight. If you don't have a clear view straight at the pointer, the angle can cause you to over torque as well as under torque the bolt. Working on motorcycles, you usually have a good view, but sometimes the bolts are upside down, such as your oil drain bolt. And on car engines you can have problems seeing the pointer well.

 

[moto_dan]

I don't know if any of you read the several references I posted in regards to torque wrenches, but it's time for a "I'll never forget story"... Back in 1972-73 I worked as a carpenters helper assisting 2 master carpenters on a commercial building site. Anyway the two older men(about my age now were installing pre-finished paneling in an office and they both used very different techniques for cutting and fitting the paneling. These two craftsman almost came to blows arguing(hammers drawn) about which was the better way... When the job was complete I would have challenged anyone to spot the differences. Moral...proper use of either style TR, (if calibrated) in the hands of the equally skilled will yield acceptable results. Always IMO

 

[Anonymous]

I personally like the old pointer type of torque wrench. It gives you a better idea if the bolt that you are tightening is going to snap or not. The pointer on the torque wrench should continuously move as you are tightening the bolt. If it stops moving and your still turning that usually is a good indication that the bolt that you are tightening is stretching and is about ready to snap. The ones that click don’t let you know until it’s too late.

Hi Roman.
I don't understand this explanation. Neither torque wrench is going to give you a better idea if you're about to snap a bolt. As you tighten, one points to the desired setting you want, then you stop. As you tighten with the other, it clicks, to let you know you've reached the desired setting, then you stop. In either case, why would you continue to tighten the bolt when you can tell that the setting has been achieved?
On a pointer wrench, the pointer will NEVER stop as long as you are applying more torque. It will not stop moving until you have broken the bolt or you have flexed it to the far side of its scale, if possible. So to say that the pointer can stop moving as you continue to tighten, is impossible.
And with a click type wrench, you say they won't warn you if the bolt is about to break, until it's too late. They do warn you, by clicking. If you continue to tighten the bolt after the click... why?
And since it's been brought up, I think the chance to over torque or break a bolt is greater with the pointer type because you have to rely on eyesight. If you don't have a clear view straight at the pointer, the angle can cause you to over torque as well as under torque the bolt. Working on motorcycles, you usually have a good view, but sometimes the bolts are upside down, such as your oil drain bolt. And on car engines you can have problems seeing the pointer well.

Hi Keith.

I’ll do my best to explain. Lets say the torque to be set is 70 lbs you turn the wrench and the needle indicates 50lbs you keep turning but the needle doesn’t move to a higher calibration it remains at 50 lbs, to me this is a useful warning. It could mean that the bolt is starting to stretch beyond its usefulness and in a few more turns it will snap, probably a fault of mine because I’m too cheap to buy new bolts. The click type of torque wrench doesn’t show me the gradual increase of pressure as you turn the wrench. It only clicks when the job is done. I hope this helps.

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

 

[moto_dan]

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

I asked the question whether or not any of my previous reference links had been read and from your response I assume not...since all referred to the click type as being the least accurate and in fact the click type are calibrated with a beam type. I agree and understand with your description of using the beam type(which I prefer) although I've used both. IMO the click type builds false security since few people have them calibrated reqularly whereas according to my limited research the beam type retains its accuracy indefinitely if not used as a "breaker bar". :?

 

[Anonymous]

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

I asked the question whether or not any of my previous reference links had been read and from your response I assume not...since all referred to the click type as being the least accurate and in fact the click type are calibrated with a beam type. I agree and understand with your description of using the beam type(which I prefer) although I've used both. IMO the click type builds false security since few people have them calibrated reqularly whereas according to my limited research the beam type retains its accuracy indefinitely if not used as a "breaker bar". :?

Dan,
You are %100 correct I did not read the previous reference links but I promise you that I will.

Roman.

 

[Anonymous]

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

I asked the question whether or not any of my previous reference links had been read and from your response I assume not...since all referred to the click type as being the least accurate and in fact the click type are calibrated with a beam type. I agree and understand with your description of using the beam type(which I prefer) although I've used both. IMO the click type builds false security since few people have them calibrated reqularly whereas according to my limited research the beam type retains its accuracy indefinitely if not used as a "breaker bar". :?

Dan,
You are %100 correct I did not read the previous reference links but I promise you that I will.

Roman.

Dan,

I read it, thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Roman.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hi Roman.
You're opinion about pointer wrenches giving a warning before snapping a bolt, is based on false observation. You are saying that while torquing a bolt to 70 lbs, the pointer can stop at 50, even though you continue to tighten. This cannot happen if the pointer wrench is working right. The pointer moves up the scale in direct relation to how much pressure you are applying. The pointer cannot move if you don't apply pressure, and the pointer cannot stop moving as long as you continue to increase pressure.
As you are torquing up to 70 lbs, the only way the pointer is going to stop at 50, is if YOU stop increasing pressure. A pointer wrench simply could'nt work adequately if it stopped moving before you reached the desired torque setting.

 

[Anonymous]

Keith,

Here's how that works. The indicator only specifies the torque applied to a bolt. In theory as you turn the bolt and tighten it the required torque increases. If the bolt is going to break, the needle will fall indicating a decrease in torque while the bolt continues to turn.

You can also feel this when you overtighten a bolt. This is just another was of observing it.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Keith,

I’m sure that I’m not doing a good job of explaining this. I might be born in Canada but there are times when I think English is a second language to me. Actually, as a child my first spoken words where in Ukrainian.

Anyways,
You’re absolutely right, but there is a point before a bolt snaps that it actually starts twisting and stretching weakening its hold onto the platform that you are bolting it to. This is when the pressure actually will begin to drop and drop to zero (this is the point when the bolt will be in two pieces ) even though you are going through the motion of tightening it.

Roman.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hi Keith,

I?m sure that I?m not doing a good job of explaining this. I might be born in Canada but there are times when I think English is a second language to me. Actually, as a child my first spoken words where in Ukrainian.

Anyways,
You?re absolutely right, but there is a point before a bolt snaps that it actually starts twisting and stretching weakening its hold onto the platform that you are bolting it to. This is when the pressure actually will begin to drop and drop to zero (this is the point when the bolt will be in two pieces ) even though you are going through the motion of tightening it.

Roman.

OK. I understand now that you are talking about the moment just before the bolt breaks. Yes, the pointer would stop moving and may even move back a little. Your discription of the pointer stopping at 50, when you are torquing to 70, just threw me.
I still don't understand why you would go past your desired setting in the first place and put yourself in the position of snapping the bolt. You should never get to the "warning point". When the pointer or click says you've reached the desired torque, you stop.
If someone is prone to go past their setting, then I can see your point. :wink:
I've never had that problem using either type of wrench, so your reasoning just did'nt click :wink: with me.
To use a torque wrench in that way is just defeating its purpose.

 

[Anonymous]

OK. I understand now that you are talking about the moment just before the bolt breaks. Yes, the pointer would stop moving and may even move back a little. Your discription of the pointer stopping at 50, when you are torquing to 70, just threw me.
I still don't understand why you would go past your desired setting in the first place and put yourself in the position of snapping the bolt. You should never get to the "warning point". When the pointer or click says you've reached the desired torque, you stop.
If someone is prone to go past their setting, then I can see your point. :wink:
I've never had that problem using either type of wrench, so your reasoning just did'nt click :wink: with me.
To use a torque wrench in that way is just defeating its purpose.

Hi Keith,
In the example that I used, the desired setting is 70 lbs not 50 lbs it’s just the bolt that I'm using for this example might happen to be old and fatigued, or defective. Thus not capable of reaching the desired torque setting of 70 lbs before breaking. I wouldn't purposely go beyond the recommended torque setting. But it would be interesting to find out at what a healthy bolt recommended to a 70 lbs torque would break at.

Roman.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

OK. You never mentioned in your earlier posts that you were talking about corroded/rusted bolts. I was thinking in terms of good condition bolts. I mentioned in my first post, the importance of inspecting the fastener before torquing. Thanks for your added info to this topic.
We should all be nuts and bolts experts by now!