r/r questions: how to find out if r/r is series or shunt?

[Guest]

Hi guys,

I just bought my first bike (GS450L '83) and working on my license. Sadly that's going slower due to covid19.

A little backstory:

After testing the bike, which ran fine and rode nice as well, I bought it and my girlfriend rode it 90km homeward. According to her it was a really nice ride, smooth and comfortable.
When we entered our street the bike suddenly died and the starter wouldn't turn anymore. The lights did turn on, but only faintly. We pushed it the last few 100 meters.
Main suspect: battery wasn't charging, or it was dead. Turns out the battery is new and after charging it the bike starts without issues. Checking the voltage while running: it doesn't charge.

I found another possible problem: the brake light would work, but the rear light wouldn't. Changing the bulb fixed that. This might be an electrical issue somewhere(r/r related? )
So I'll have to go through the stator papers this weekend. My brother who's an electrician is also coming for some wrenching, should be fun.
A replacement stator was sent to me by the seller, I think he felt bad for me. So I can go as far as replacing the stator on the check list.
As for the r/r, that is a different question, they seem to be quite expensive here so I want to know what my options are.

As a complete bike noob I've quite a bit of learning to do but I am eager to get this bike running and in tip top shape for spring.
For the r/r I have a few questions after going through quite a few topics here and reading bikecliffs r/r compatibility list.

1. How do I know if a r/r is series or shunt? In some topics here it was mentioned that any SHxxx unit is series and the FH-xxx units are shunt. Is this always the case?
2. Is the list on bikecliffs site complete, and are no other units compatible?
3. There are years listed for bikes (CBR1000RR 06-07). Are parts from bikes from other years not compatible even if the part number for the r/r (e.g. SH538) is the same?
4. If the list is not complete, how do I find out if an r/r is compatible? (seems most r/r's are insanely expensive her compared to the US, think 3x as much).
5. Is a SHINDENGEN SH532-12 compatible, which is not on the list(I found one for a "decent" price)?

Thanks in advance.
Any tips / critiques are always welcome.

 

[Nessism]

Edit: sorry, just noticed you are from the Netherlands. Not sure what you have available in your home market. Polaris used a lot of SH775's so I usually search ebay for "polaris regulator" and then toggle "used" and sort by price. Then look for a SH775. Make sure the printing is visible. Be very careful purchasing new SH775's because there are a lot of fakes in the marketplace.
Good luck in your search.

Unless your bike has a SH775 or a compufire R/R you have a shunt jobby.

Grab this fast before someone else does...https://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-Polar...1b1df59:g:npYAAOSw751fc1ar&LH_ItemCondition=4

Triumph PN T2500676 Harness matches nicely and sells for about $10. Order from your favorite source.

 

[Gorminrider]

1. Is a SHINDENGEN SH532-12 compatible, which is not on the list(I found one for a "decent" price)?

Yes, if it IS a Shindegnen. There are many clones with the same number stamped on them. The common clue to clones is brand-new and really cheap. Cross your fingers with these.

They are shunt-type.

You will have to tinker a bit to mount it.

 

[Guest]

So the SH775, SH847 and the Compu-Fire 55402 r/r are the only series r/r's then?

Unless your bike has a SH775 or a compufire R/R you have a shunt jobby.

Thanks. I searched for a compu-fire r/r and it seems I can only find new ones, no matter the location (us, eu, worldwide). Are these r/r's made new or are those just a bunch of fakes?
As for the SH775, I found the cheapest one in EU at a whopping 195 dollarydoos.

Yes, if it IS a Shindegnen. There are many clones with the same number stamped on them. The common clue to clones is brand-new and really cheap. Cross your fingers with these.

It was full of grime with the part number correct. It looked real. But that's my untrained eye. In the mean time I found a SH538 as well from a salvage shop.


I'll wait for this weekend and see what's broken. Depending on that I'll probably get a shunt type if I can't get any decently priced series type.

 

[Gorminrider]

It was full of grime with the part number correct. It looked real. But that's my untrained eye. In the mean time I found a SH538 as well from a salvage shop.

Likely real then...just get some test or guarantee that a used one IS functioning and local sources are obviously best for this versus returning to ebay. That's the trouble with "used" of course- you just don't know their history.... but they've been a good bet in my experience.

I've got various Shindegnen shunts on 5 motorcycles and they all work fine. I've never needed a new one. On the other hand, the original (NipponDenso?) on your bike have a very bad reputation. Don't replace yours with the original....I think there's just one person on the whole forum who still has the OEM R/R, but he was the original owner and that might go a long way to explain it.

 

[Guest]

Thanks! Good to hear that a shindengen shunt is still a major improvement over stock. I thought that any shunt type was terrible with all the hype for a series r/r.

 

[Gorminrider]

They still put shunt-type in new bikes. Series-type are popular on this forum but other forums don't mention charging as such a problem...

When being thrifty, an old shunt from an old Honda or an old Series from an old Polaris snowmobile...might be a tossup.
Main thing with R/Rs (IMO) is how hot they get. Keeping them in an airflow helps longevity. I guess the snowmobile MIGHT have had an advantage here, but Honda made a lot of reliable bikes....


When buying new, you are in better country. Compufire, Shindegnen....
Shindegnen makes both types
Regulators/Rectifiers | Motorcycle Products | SHINDENGEN ELECTRIC MFG.CO.,LTD

 

[Nessism]

The main advantage of a series R/R is because it protects the stator from return current over heat damage.

I'm not sure about in some places of the world but in North America it's possible to find good used SH775's for $40 or so. I've collected a number of them over the years and tested them on my bike and I've never had one that didn't work properly. The only real issues I've seen are physical damage, in particular with the plastic connectors. Look at the locking tabs closely. Anyway, with a SH775 being as cheap as they are, it doesn't make much sense to get anything else.

 

[Gorminrider]

it protects the stator from return current over heat damage

Yes, that's a theory some believe. But even it being given there is "overheating", there might be other ways to control it...elaborate oil spraying has been done by a member. A heat sink on the casing itself too. Both of these would be more useful in the following example:

If say, in the winter, running heated vest, grips, gloves, or other auxiliaries, the argument of "overheating by shunting" has less meaning, You "need" and "use" all the output. Very little will be "shunted".

Oh- and then there's a question of the spike as the series opens and closes an inducted field......I expect the R/R will be designed to control it, but oscilliscope pictures I've seen worry me a little.

 

[Gorminrider]

It's a bit of drift, but "Series" regulation isn't a new thing. I fuzzily recall a mechanical relay was, in the old field-type generators. I don't think I ever saw one in an alternator. (That might beg the question: do they use solid-state shunting or series in the field regulation of alternators? i don't know)

But it might be interesting to get home using a hefty relay to mimic series (or shunt! )in a pinch..I'd definitely want a large capacitance across the points though.

 

[Grimly]

It's a bit of drift, but "Series" regulation isn't a new thing. I fuzzily recall a mechanical relay was, in the old field-type generators. I don't think I ever saw one in an alternator. (That might beg the question: do they use solid-state shunting or series in the field regulation of alternators? i don't know)

But it might be interesting to get home using a hefty relay to mimic series (or shunt! )in a pinch..I'd definitely want a large capacitance across the points though.

Dynamo and Field-Controlled alternators are dealing with many fewer amps in their field control clrcuits than even the wheezy output of the venerable GS PM alternator, and I don't think for a moment that Suzuki /Nippon Denso / Kokokan engineers were ignorant of that pre-existing technology.
Simply put, the shunt reg and the headlight loop were a simple, elegant and cheap solution.
Elegant until it went wrong, of course, then it became quite disgraceful.
Something like a ballerina with Exlax.

 

[Nessism]

There's more to fixing a busted GS charging system than just changing a R/R and/or stator. You have to rewire the system too and eliminate the stator loop through the hand control.

 

[Gorminrider]

Dynamo and Field-Controlled alternators are dealing with many fewer amps in their field control clrcuits than even the wheezy output of the venerable GS PM

Oh sure but a starter solenoid could do it easily. Wild idea but perhaps an automobile alternator's solid state field regulator would control it to save wanting another small relay to slave the solenoid...or, just control a single stator leg a la Suzuki's plan....

But controlling the sparks and annoying buzzy noise puts this further down my list

 

[Guest]

Thanks all for your input and suggestions. The bike is now running again.

Just spent the afternoon with my brother taking the bike apart.

• We cleaned all connections which helped with reducing voltage loss from 0.8v to 0.21v.
• We replaced a few connections as well, many wires got really hot and showed terrible wear.
• The connectors from the stator were turned to coal basically and got melted together.
• We made, proper but temporary, connections to the wire harness.
• Replaced the OEM r/r with a SH538 r/r because screw that OEM one.

That resulted in a charging bike again. Hurrah.
Sadly due to rains (no garage) we got interrupted a lot, sitting on the side lines for half the afternoon.

Todo:

• Replace stator, which is probably also in terrible condition.
• Recreate proper connects from harness to stator
• Check brake fluids
• Check airbox / clean airbox
• Find out why the RPMs go up while idling after driving more than 10 minutes.

A few nice project days left before winter ends, hopefully I can sort out most problems.

 

[Gorminrider]

Good!

• Find out why the RPMs go up while idling after driving more than 10 minutes.

pretty common on old bikes I find....and cars with carbs too , so I only tune the bike up when it's fully warmed up and suffer through the warming-up" period with the "choke" and the throttle.
If that doesn't work, there's lots of ideas in the forum...air-leaks, fuel level, etc etc.

Don't be too quick to toss the stator away. They can be brown and work fine.

 

[Admiral Beez]

They still put shunt-type in new bikes. Series-type are popular on this forum but other forums don't mention charging as such a problem...

We talk about how the OEM shunt r/r doesn't last, stresses our wires/connectors and destroys the stator, however we're all riding bikes that are decades old, and many, like mine ran on their original r/r for well over 30 years and 40,000 km before I replaced it due to an overcharging issue which began only this season.

I've only had this bike for three years, and never opened the cover so IDK if my stator is original, it tested fine last month (and connections were clean without visible heat damage) during the r/r/ swap last month - the r/r was definitely original, surface patina looked like it was 100 years old. But speaking for the OEM r/r that's a pretty good run for an old piece of tech. We'll see if the replacement (or myself) lasts another 38 years.... hmm that'll make me 87.

 

[Gorminrider]

^^Wow that does look old and OEM! It looks like it was mounted in the weather which might have kept it cooler and extended life?...You wouldn't think the solidstate stuff would fail due strictly to age....mileage, and internal heat are more likely...but who knows? The varnish on the stator windings would probably age too, losing flexibility..but, I have some 80 year old electric motors here that still work great, so the OEM varnish might be suspect.

Obviously, I'm not happy with the explanations offered here about the failures - it's too specific to these particular bikes and I lean toward poor manufacture and design. Maybe the oil that gets flung onto the stator has a bad effect. THAT feature is not unque to these bikes but it is not general-my Honda and Kawasaki have NO oil under the side cover... That combined with the OEM R/R not being well cooled, or poor internal components of the OEM R/R...

 

[Peter#1266]

Late to the party, but... my 82 GS1100GK which I have had since 1991, has, as far as I can tell, the original stator and original R/R. I did have a charging issue when I bought it, which I traced to nasty connections from the stator. I replaced these and at the same time extended the wiring to relocate the R/R on the frame downtubes, just under the steering head. Remembering seeing the Zener diode on old Brits (BSA, etc) mounted up there and if that could keep Lucas electrics going, then it can't have been a bad thing. Hasn't hurt anyway and the charging system is still working
I have since bought another GK (parts bike) which had a Shindengen SH532-12 R/R, but the stator was gone from that so no idea of the history, and last weekend got another 1100G which has a (I think) replica Shindengen - looks identical but without the lettering.

 

[Grimly]

The Sh 532 is a Honda r/r commonly fitted to Superdreams, etc.
As such, it's a shunt type.
However, if you keep your headlamp on (and the switch circuitry and connections spotless clean) you can run a shorting / shunting type for years.
Don't ever forget to switch the headlamp on when you start a journey as you may find a dead stator on your return.
Just get a 775.

 

[duaneage]

Sh-232 Was my favorite. Fit perfect and never failed.

Sold a few hundred on this forum over the years.