Rectifier/Regulator replacement list

[posplayr]

OK to WRAP THIS UP

OK to WRAP THIS UP

I got my current amp to work again. Watta you know the 9 volt battery died after just 10 years.

Here is the test setup.

Looking down into the battery compartment; shows the current clamp, and the timing light with RPM readout to control the charging. I moved the current clamp between total current supplied by the RR (about 10-12 Amps) and the battery charging current (smalll current -1 to +2 amps)

The Honda and the OEM regulator modified with fresh crimp connector and soldered to prevent corrosion.

The installed FH0112AA; mounted upside down. I still need to RTV those connectors.

continued.....

 

[posplayr]

Current Plots

Current Plots

Here are some selected shots of the FH012AA only. This graph is at idle with showing the blue AC current coming from one of the stator legs. The Yellow is the voltage relative to ground of the stator leg. You can see here something just under 15V and accounting for 1 volt drop from the diodes the output voltage was about 13.8V.

Here is the same thing (idling) but looking at the total current coming from the R/R. You get about 10Amps, the RR is not regulating and so you only see the harmonics associated with a 3 phase full wave rectifier. The label says 2 ADC but that is wrong. The scale is 5 amps per major division.

The charging current moving from the R/R to the battery is basically the same but can be adjusted up and down (positive and negative) by the idle speed; it is near zero and I could only get it up to 2 amps at 3K RPM.

Here is where it gets ugly and you see the effect of the "crow bar" control at 3K RPM. They basically look the same except there is about 10 of DC current in the R/R current. The charging current is 2 amps in this graph as measured by my averaging scope.

Not sure this ads alot but it confirms what we already knew. It is interesting that the R/R produces 10 amps total. That has been my guess for a long time .

Pos

 

[rustybronco]

It is interesting that the R/R produces 10 amps total. That has been my guess for a long time .
Pos

That information is what I have been looking for.

all that I have read, the stock stator is around 275-290 watts output.

out of your FET regulator, you have 14.0v@ 10 amps=140 watts which would make sense, because of the 42%-55% efficiency in the shunt style R/R. the output current is made worse (the greater the difference, the lower the efficiency) because of the very high input to low output voltage.

changing the stator to a larger diameter wire with less turns, may help increase the efficiency of a "crow bar" style R/R, by bringing the input voltage closer to the output voltage. combining a "rewound" stator, with this FET regulator, may show improvement in the available current output.
but it will "probably" sacrifice low speed charging system output. how much it will sacrifice is unknown at this time.

since most of the running of our bikes is in the 4-6,000 range, it just might make a nice trade off.

your thoughts Pos, or am I off base here? (go easy, I'm just a parts guy)

***edit***removed incorrect information. see this post... http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=967880&postcount=85

Actually I measured about 12.5 maximum, so the power delivered to the load is 14.5V@12.5 amps (at 4000 RPM) = 181 watts.

So for the Honda or OEM we should get a total power dissipation of:

P_loss_honda = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1.7/2+1.7/2) = 48.7 watts
P_loss_FH012 = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1/2 + 0/2) = 14.3 watts

 

[duaneage]

http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/scr_overvoltage_crowbar/scr_over_voltage_crowbar.php
I thought this would come in handy for those that are wondering what a crowbar circuit looks like. Usually they are used for overvoltage protection, the same principle can be applied to regulation if the sense voltage is applied to the scr trigger input and clamped by external transistors.

 

[posplayr]

Rusty

Rusty

That information is what I have been looking for.
all that I have read, the stock stator is around 275-290 watts output.

out of your FET regulator, you have 14.0v@ 10 amps=140 watts which would make sense, because of the 42%-55% efficiency in the shunt style R/R. the output current is made worse (the greater the difference, the lower the efficiency) because of the very high input to low output voltage.

Actually I measured about 12.5 maximum, so the power delivered to the load is 14.5V@12.5 amps (at 4000 RPM) = 181 watts.

The loss of the regulator can be approximated by knowing the stator current and the bridges voltage losses.

The voltage drops are assumed to be relatively constant during a 1/2 cycle of the power signal so the R/R power loss is 3 times the average power loss for both upper and lower diode legs.

P loss = 3 * (2/pi) * I_stator_peak( 50% * VD_upper + 50%* VD_lower)

(loss of the R/R)

The (2/pi) I_stator_peak gives the average current during a 1/2 cycle of the stator current wave form (sine wave)

The diodes are only conducting 1/2 the time so there is an average power calculation

The leading 3 is to account for the three phases.

So for the Honda or OEM we should get a total power dissipation of:

P_loss_honda = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1.7/2+1.7/2) = 48.7 watts
P_loss_FH012 = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1/2 + 0/2) = 14.3 watts

changing the stator to a larger diameter wire with less turns, may help increase the efficiency of a "crow bar" style R/R, by bringing the input voltage closer to the output voltage. combining a "rewound" stator, with this FET regulator, may show improvement in the available current output.
but it will "probably" sacrifice low speed charging system output. how much it will sacrifice is unknown at this time.

since most of the running of our bikes is in the 4-6,000 range, it just might make a nice trade off.

your thoughts Pos, or am I off base here? (go easy, I'm just a parts guy)

***edit***140 watts ain't jack... and add to it a R/R that is less efficient? whoooweeee!

I had a talk with one of the experienced power guys about this topic and his general comment was tread lightly. The crow bar regulation as ugly as it is works because there is substantial source resistance in the stator. Basically the stator resistance limits the current when you short it. If you were to reduce that resistance by 1/2 say, you would increase the current by x2 when crow barring and either the stator or the R/R may not be able to take it. Other than that there are too many factors to generalize in this forum.

Without changing the stator, there is an extra 34 watts avaliable to the load if required so that is about a 20% increase in avaliable output power.

Pos

 

[duaneage]

I had a talk with one of the experienced power guys about this topic and his general comment was tread lightly. The crow bar regulation as ugly as it is works because there is substantial source resistance in the stator. Basically the stator resistance limits the current when you short it. If you were to reduce that resistance by 1/2 say, you would increase the current by x2 when crow barring and either the stator or the R/R may not be able to take it. Other than that there are too many factors to generalize in this forum.

Without changing the stator, there is an extra 34 watts avaliable to the load if required so that is about a 20% increase in avaliable output power.

Pos

Like I said before, the EE who designed the RRs took into account the stator and it's unique characteristics.The stator impedance interacts with the Q of the circuit represented by resistance, reactance, phase, voltage, current and frequency. One thing to consider is the Honda stators are electrically very similar to the Suzuki stators. Their regulators are similar as well with the significant difference being the regulator reference and an obviously larger heatsink area. Other than that they are quite compatible.

 

[posplayr]

Like I said before, the EE who designed the RRs took into account the stator and it's unique characteristics.The stator impedance interacts with the Q of the circuit represented by resistance, reactance, phase, voltage, current and frequency. One thing to consider is the Honda stators are electrically very similar to the Suzuki stators. Their regulators are similar as well with the significant difference being the regulator reference and an obviously larger heatsink area. Other than that they are quite compatible.

I think that this comment is trying to suggest that the Honda regulator is a better match for the OEM stator than the FH012AA. It is using my comment for justification.

The point of my comments was that stators for "crow bar" control systems have to maintain a certain about of resistance in the wire. That means thinner wire and more windings. This is necessary because when the crow bar shorts out the stator coils, the stator and the R/R can fry unless there is sufficent resistance in the stator to limit the current.

The specific point being brought out is to not drop the stator impedance too much as if you do and short it's leads then you can fry it. It has little to nothing to do with a matching of the regulator to the stator. A R/R with crow bar control will short the stator whether it is OEM,HONDA or FH012AA.

Most all of the discussion has centered on a R/R that is efficient and can produce regulation in the face of minimum stator voltages. No where has the issue of MATCHING of R/R characteristics to Stator characteristics been discussed or described other than in duaneage prior post and baseless suggestion.

So in Jim's court I find the following statement as a not so subtle form of "fear mongering" to promote running to Honda regulators so that the last 5% of market share can be grabbed. In the interest of GS science I must protest.

the EE who designed the RRs took into account the stator and it's unique characteristics.The stator impedance interacts with the Q of the circuit represented by resistance, reactance, phase, voltage, current and frequency.

There is nothing mis matched about a FH012AA on a GS stator as far as I can tell. :-s


duaneage

I really was hoping you would not post such comments. Maybe you just don't know any better. :?:

Pos

 

[Matchless]

Jim,
Just another stone in the bush as we say.
I noticed some wiring diagrams for bikes using the FET R/R that have Delta configured stators, cannot recall the models now off the top of my head. I was wondering if the use of these would now be more "efficient and reliable" together with the FET 50A R/R.
Honda did try a model (VFR) or so with delta wound stators a few years ago and I think the charging on that bike was not very reliable and there were many problems with R/R's at the time and all sorts of fixes.
There are also star "heavy duty" stator rewinds and aftermarket ones advertised as giving say an extra 20% and being more robust etc etc.

Some great analysis work you have done here. I am looking forward to the comparison summary table between the two units!!
Keep up the good work.

 

[Matchless]

One thing to consider is the Honda stators are electrically very similar to the Suzuki stators. Their regulators are similar as well with the significant difference being the regulator reference and an obviously larger heatsink area. Other than that they are quite compatible.

Duanage,
I see what you are saying and I want to agree with you. Most of these "older" SCR R/R's around are mostly made and designed by Shindengin for Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki etc and over the years some variants and improvements were made, such as Honda did not equip every bike with a sensing type R/R. Honda also used field regulation in the early 80's already. I saw some diagrams where Suzuki also used a reference R/R.
I would not be surprised if some different models have the exact same components inside them. I would also not expect the same manufacturer to specifically manufacture a less robust one for other manufacturers, but rather provide a proven design as per the rated capacity required.
My personal guess here is that Honda demanded a slightly higher current rated type and as such had a larger safety margin built in and maybe used this down to smaller bikes as well.

I have seen sites where people also bemoan the Honda charging problems. The VFR sites are examples.

Please keep on sharing your wealth of experience with us, as your service to the forum is very well respected and will be used by many until you pull the plug one day. The majority of owners just want a part and the info on how to connect it and is not much interested on the detail we are looking at here.
Keep well and keep adding to this thread!

 

[Larry D]

Duanage,
Please keep on sharing your wealth of experience with us, as your service to the forum is very well respected and will be used by many until you pull the plug one day. The majority of owners just want a part and the info on how to connect it and is not much interested on the detail we are looking at here.
Keep well and keep adding to this thread!

I am one of those people that just want to know which one to use and how to wire it up. I've been reading this thread since it's beginning and understand next to nothing about the techinical aspects portions. The research, testing and time spent are greatly appreciated.

This is what I get out of this...we possibly have a more technically advanced r/r to use on our electrical challanged bikes. We do however, already have a great alternative with the use of the Honda r/r. It's proven it's effectivness over time.
So, over the past few days I've searched around the net for a FH012AA and found only two. Both were around $80-$100. They can be purchased new and the cheapest I found was about $120. If you can find one for less on the net or new...let me know.

My point is this, why would I spend $80-$100 for a part that I can get for $40 ??

Okay you guys can go back to the technical electrical stuff now.......

 

[rustybronco]

Jim,
There are also star "heavy duty" stator rewinds and aftermarket ones advertised as giving say an extra 20% and being more robust etc etc.

Some great analysis work you have done here...

Keep up the good work.

Andre,
It is my intent, with the information provided by Jim and others, to "tread lightly" in my choice of the wire gauge and rewind a stator and provide such a comparison between the stock stator and a more "ROBUST??" stator, used with a OEM, Honda and a FET R/R.

My point is this, why would I spend $80-$100 for a part that I can get for $40 ??

for those that are seeking that "little extra" wattage and durability in a charging system and it also may be useful information not provided elsewhere.

as Jim said, for the 90% of those out there that have the Honda R/R mod (I have them on both 850's) it will be fine.

 

[duaneage]

duaneage

I really was hoping you would not post such comments. Maybe you just don't know any better. :?:

Pos

Have fun with your experiment and I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for. :|

 

[Matchless]

Dale,
Exactly what I was emplying. As you know I have always wondered what an exact stock OEM stator was w.r.t wire gauge and amount of turns and did this ever change over the years. We know that very good working results are possible over quite a wide range of variations regardless of everything not being politically correct.

I have had two similar but differently wound stators next to each other, both claiming to have been original stock OEM stators and that made me a bit dubious. So many changes over 30 years by owners and even manufacturers, OEM suppliers and aftermarket suppliers. Who really knows how a fresh stock stator compares to the unkown stator presently fitted or is it a rewound and to what specs.

A so called "ROBUST" stator may be one that gives more wattage/current, but then actually sacrifices longevity or fails easily under abnormal conditions. My experience is that components of a much higher current rating and maximum voltage are more robust and sometimes physically larger, but more expensive, so most manufacturers do not stray too far away from the theoretical maximum limit.

Your test results should be quite interesting.

I think that without doubt we have identified a "better" and preferable R/R. OK in 30 years time we will know for sure!!

 

[Matchless]

My point is this, why would I spend $80-$100 for a part that I can get for $40 ??

I think yours is most likely the most important comment! Just for interest, my ex Honda GL R/R works perfectly, but if I do stumble accross a SH012 and it is under $10 I may think about a spare!

If we carry on like this we may have Mr Suzuki himself joining the forum soon and asking for advice and help!

 

[Larry D]

I think yours is most likely the most important comment! Just for interest, my ex Honda GL R/R works perfectly, but if I do stumble accross a SH012 and it is under $10 I may think about a spare!

If we carry on like this we may have Mr Suzuki himself joining the forum soon and asking for advice and help!

Agreed....Im going to keep an eye out for one as well. This r/r was installed on some Yamaha motorcycles, snowmobiles and 4 wheelers, '06 and above. Maybe someone will be parting one out in the future and will sell one not knowing what they have and I can get one for a more comparable price.

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

Jim,
Just another stone in the bush as we say.
I noticed some wiring diagrams for bikes using the FET R/R that have Delta configured stators, cannot recall the models now off the top of my head. I was wondering if the use of these would now be more "efficient and reliable" together with the FET 50A R/R.
Honda did try a model (VFR) or so with delta wound stators a few years ago and I think the charging on that bike was not very reliable and there were many problems with R/R's at the time and all sorts of fixes.
There are also star "heavy duty" stator rewinds and aftermarket ones advertised as giving say an extra 20% and being more robust etc etc.

Some great analysis work you have done here. I am looking forward to the comparison summary table between the two units!!
Keep up the good work.

I don't know that I can say anything definitive about those specific designs, but I did review the differences between the Y and Delta configurations. Basically it appears as if you use the same wire thickness and the same number of turns, then the power output will be the same. The main difference is in the form of the delivered power re; voltage and current.

In the "Y" configuration, the current in each leg is the same as the current in that leg of the stator coil. However when you measure the voltage across two legs, you are seeing the voltage across two sets of windings and it turns out that the voltage is sqrt(3) larger (multiply by 1.732) than an individual coil voltage.

The dual is true of the delta configuration. When you measure the voltage across two leads, it is the voltage across one coil. The current though is from two coils so the current is increased by the same sqrt(3).

Here are some links that explain this.


http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/worksheets/deltawye.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-%CE%94_transform

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/5.html

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/5.html

? Δ-connected three-phase voltage sources give greater reliability in the event of winding failure than Y-connected sources. However, Y-connected sources can deliver the same amount of power with less line current than Δ-connected sources.

Since the typical GS stator is a Y configuration, that produces higher output voltage. From the testing I did and what we know the output voltage is marginal at 1200 RPM and gets worse with the OEM/Honda regulators due to higher diode losses than the FET implementation.

If a Delta was used you would think that there would need to be more wraps in the coils and so smaller wire to lower the current and increase the voltage to an acceptable level be make up for the fact that you now lost sqrt(3) factor on output voltage.

In theory at least, there might be a sweet spot where you can reduce the size of the wire, increase the packing density and thereby get more wraps (reduced no air gaps) between the insulated windings for the same volume under the stator cover. If you think about it with very fine wire you can get more copper to wrap around stator.

With a whole bunch of wraps you might even exceed the sqrt(3) factor in voltage and you can go to a delta configuration and maintain the minimum output voltage level. The delta is a a safer configuration as per the comment above. The only way to really improve reliability is to get more copper per turn if comparing Y to Y or Delta to Delta.


If you can confirm that delta configurations have much thinner wire, then you would be validating my analysis. Elsewise there is something else going on.

As far as how much this is related to the R/R? I think the critical constraint in the power deliver is that you need more than 13 volts to adequately charge the battery. Increasing current capacity of a delta will not fire your coils if it is at 7.5 volts output. (13/sqrt(3)). You have to increase the winding to get back to 13V. A lossy R/R with 3 volts of diode drop is going to make it harder to achieve the 13V limit. If the delta and the FET R/R are used together that makes sense if you can't get your wire small enough to get the voltage high enough, then the FET R/R doesn't need as much voltage to produce the 13V (less internal drop) and the reliability of the delta can be implemented while still getting the minimum 13V at idle.

The constraint ,if you think about it is that the stator cover only allows a certain amount of wire to be wrapped on the stator within the space confines. There really is no leap in technology that is going to allow you to pack more copper under the cover. You might get some super conducting copper perhaps, but on a 30 year old bike???? More than likely someone could produce a rotor with stronger magnets and get more power out that way.:lol: You would have to rethink the stator configuration depending upon what can be done with the magnets.

Good luck on that, you are now trying to solve an engineering problem with motor design.

Pos

 

[Guest]

More than likely someone could produce a rotor with stronger magnets and get more power out that way.:lol: You would have to rethink the stator configuration depending upon what can be done with the magnets.

Good luck on that, you are now trying to solve an engineering problem with motor design.

Pos[/QUOTE]

I thought there already are modern sportbikes with Rare Earth magnets. CBR1000rr and other Firblades I think.

 

[Matchless]

The constraint ,if you think about it is that the stator cover only allows a certain amount of wire to be wrapped on the stator within the space confines. There really is no leap in technology that is going to allow you to pack more copper under the cover.

Good luck on that, you are now trying to solve an engineering problem with motor design.

Actually the space for winding the copper wire is limited to the distance between the iron core of each pole measured right at the bottom at its narrowest and then divided in half. In practice this relates to maximum 3 layers of #18 or #19 AWG wire.

Sorry, I am not attempting to solve a problem or design a better unit, that is way beyond my capabilities and intentions, I was just wondering about those things.

Then I also find it interesting that Mr Honda used a field regulated alternator in 1980 onwards for the CB750's - CB1000's and Mr Suzuki never did. Then why did Mr Honda use a shunt regulated alternator for the Goldwings of that same era? I would have expected it the other way around.

Jim, keep well and thanks.

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

Actually the space for winding the copper wire is limited to the distance between the iron core of each pole measured right at the bottom at its narrowest and then divided in half. In practice this relates to maximum 3 layers of #18 or #19 AWG wire.

Sounds like you are familiar with the windings; Can you confirm any of the theortical trades between the Delta and Y above? Specifically are the Delta winding of thinner wire to get more loops and higher output voltage?

Is it possible to wire a Y stator with thicker wire to increase wire area by 20% and increase the current output within the same space confines?

Sorry, I am not attempting to solve a problem or design a better unit, that is way beyond my capabilities and intentions,

That was a figurative U . What I should have said is, that it was going to be difficult for me to draw any general conclusions because the issues are detailed design factors that are not nessesarily obvious without actually doing the engineering design.

Then I also find it interesting that Mr Honda used a field regulated alternator in 1980 onwards for the CB750's - CB1000's and Mr Suzuki never did. Then why did Mr Honda use a shunt regulated alternator for the Goldwings of that same era? I would have expected it the other way around.

Who knows there could be any number of factors outside of technical.


I still have some questions in my mind about:

a.) why the Electrosport and OEM units got so much hotter than the Honda when presumably they are similar?
b.) Also what is the impact to the stator current when the shunt control is active?
c.) Does the FH012AA shunt during periods of lower current (i.e. at cross over) as to not create as much of a current spike and it is actually less stressing on the stator?

I'm going to have to get a fan to run at 3K RPM to get those measurements.

Well maybe there will be more....
Pos

 

[rustybronco]

b.) Also what is the impact to the stator current when the shunt control is active?
c.) Does the FH012AA shunt during periods of lower current (i.e. at cross over) as to not create as much of a current spike and it is actually less stressing on the stator?

I'm going to have to get a fan to run at 3K RPM to get those measurements.

Well maybe there will be more....
Pos

Interesting thought you have there Pos.
the stator is also an inductor, so the phase angle between voltage and current would be off by 90 degrees.