Rectifier/Regulator replacement list

[Matchless]

Pos,
As per my thoughts, to me it seems as if the manufacturers, with all the R&D available to them could never really decide which was the better way to go and some are still using the same approach 30 years onwards.

My rewinding is limited to the GS 18 pole only and I can just confirm that 1.00mm diameter copper wire can only fill 3.5 layers per pole max. I cannot confirm it but it seems as if some OEM stators have 0.9mm diameter wire and have a full 3 layers, but I cannot guarantee whether I had an OEM or a rewound at the time.
Information that was given to me shows the same windings except for the connection being delta instead of star. Same diameter wire and windings as well. I think the stator rewinding guide on GSR is for a delta.

I have never seen a Delta stator in practice for the GS, so not sure, but was told that the same regulator was used.

I could never find any definite specifications to use as a base unfortunately.

 

[Matchless]

Here is a schematic of the field regulating alternator used by Honda in the early 1980's. The actual structure is very similar to the permanent magnet type. Rotor is direct on crank and stator is wound as with shown two brushes in the stator cover for the electromagnet rotor. On the CB Honda this unit is part of the motor and not a seperate unit and is on the right hand side where the Suzuki points or pickup coils are.

The R/R is external and in looks could easily be confused with the shunt type. Please note that here they use field regulating R/R's that are NOT interchangeable with the shunt type and will not work on the GS!

The two extra wires B and F here could easily be confused with "sensing" or reference wires, but is not the same.

 

[posplayr]

Generator Design

Generator Design

Pos,
As per my thoughts, to me it seems as if the manufacturers, with all the R&D available to them could never really decide which was the better way to go and some are still using the same approach 30 years onwards.

Further to comments, I spent some time reading an old text on motor design looking for various alternative approaches for Synchronous AC machines. While the lack of a Field control and the associated crow bar regulation of the Suzuki regulator might seem brute force, in a sense it is the result of a relatively elegant compromise solution from a system perspective (that might be a stretch I know).

There were at the time (early 80's) various alternatives to the permanent magnet generator design. Most of the alternatives are significantly more complex. Any of the alternator designs, require a separate housed device that has to be external to the crank case due to the requirement for a slip ring or brush to control the rotor mounted Field coil (see Matchless's Honda example above and the GSXR design used at least between 86-95). Technology did exist at the time for brushless excitation but that was primarily limited to aircraft and military systems probably due to cost.


I am drawn back to a statement that a fellow GS member (I won't guess who it was because I don't remember) made here a while back about the charging system. The statement was something to the effect that "the charging system is not intended to charge the battery". I'm pretty sure that he had heard that conclusion from someone more knowledgeable about the charging as the statement was unqualified or elaborated on. So I'll guess further as to the meaning..

The system level elegance that I speak of is to take the simplest generator design and match it's output to the demand curve for the motorcycle as a function of RPM. Using this approach, the system can be designed simply and is almost fool proof as even without any voltage controls the generator and load are matched. OK so you can't quite do that so you need to have some regulation because the battery is relatively intolerant of over charging. Some form of regulation is required. Unfortunately for Suzuki, the elegance of the systems engineering did not translate into a well executed R/R design. Given the recent heating of my Electrosport it is not a whole lot better. Honda did a better job on their R/R.

The R/R's get hot because of diode voltage drops. The larger the diodes the lower the drops (see the upper diodes of the FH012AA dropping only 1V vz. the 1.7v in the others). This is pretty much the same whether the R/R is regulating of not. I measured about 10 amps demand at idle and about 12.5 amps at 4000 rpm. So while there might be some variations in crowbar controls, it is important regardless of RPM to have lower drops.

Attempts to increase the current capacity or the stator, will further tax the R/R as it has to provide more regulation to limit the output power that the load is not absorbing. In the previous calculations I estimated that the FH012AA would make more power available if the load demanded it. Because there is a lower drop in the diode there is more drop across the stator and therefore more power dissipated in the stator.

Increasing wire size will increase the current capacity and increase the currents when shunted which force the R/R to shunt more current. If there is not a larger load to absorb this increased capacity, then it is not a desirable options.

The bottom line seems to be that the solution for Suzuki was to develop a charging system that matched the load (light, ignition, blinkers), and any increases in capacity should only come with an increase in demand (heater units and the like). So the crow bar regulation was simply fine tuning of the load.

Pos

 

[posplayr]

More MOSFET Shunt R/R's

More MOSFET Shunt R/R's

http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=91050&highlight=rectifier&page=2

I did some research on the R/R that the OP jim.randall used - it too is a Shindengen MOSFET unit. Most of the late model CBRs utilize the same type of R/R and the latest CBR1000 looks like it uses the FH0012 with the same connectors.

The designation on the CBR1000 unit is FH008EB - the 'F' designates it is an FET model - the Shunt/SCR ones by same manufacturer have an 'S' prefix.
Unfortunately I can't find exact specs on the FH008 unit but is still an excellent choice given it uses the MOSFET technology.

Look for these others (thanks Rusty)

Jim,
it looks like there are also fh008eb, fh010 and fh011 R/R's out there. so far no current ratings.

Pos

Edit More comments:

Mine measures 14.4 from idle to redline - I ran 10 ga wires straight to the battery with a 30A inline fuse.

Another successful R/R upgrade using a CBR1000RR part. Sorry, no pictures. I didn't have a lot of time to work today while the kids were napping. When I was finished, I measured a perfect 13.8V at everything above 2500 RPM and 13.5 at idle.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HOND...0-1000RR-_W0QQitemZ200293580131QQcmdZViewItem


More description of Suzuki failure to provide good R/R design on the SV650's

http://webpages.charter.net/jrandall/vrr/vrr_upgrade.htm

http://www.triumphrat.net/sprint-forum/104504-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html

Another alternative that has MOSFET control, is the FH010 - this is used on late-model Kawasakis (ZZX10 /14) and also some R1 & FJR in the 2005/2006 range. It has slightly lower power rating than the 12 but still plenty for the SV. That 010 unit has same form factor as the 012.

Exactly as I mounted my FH012 CZ Eddie - but the *12 model is MUCH more compact. I would recommend against the FH011 model simply because of its physical size but nice job of installing .
Also although the smaller spade 14-16ga terminal is a more compact fit in the connector, try to stuff a 12ga wire into it to get less loss.

 

[Matchless]

Here is a connection schematic for the lugs on the new Shindengen FET regulator series FH0010 to FH0014. Some have wire tails and some have spade terminals.

[URL=http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=ozymyjzh5mz&thumb=4]
[/URL]

 

[posplayr]

Huh???

Huh???

+12 and - 12 ???? or is that GND

 

[Matchless]

+12 and - 12 ???? or is that GND

Do I have it wrong? Red is positive 12 Volt and green is negative 12 Volt otherwise called ground? We call it "Earth". let me know and I will fix the diagram if it is incorrect.
Thanks.

 

[rustybronco]

Do I have it wrong? Red is positive 12 Volt and green is negative 12 Volt otherwise called ground? We call it "Earth". let me know and I will fix the diagram if it is incorrect.
Thanks.

-0v or is it +0v? is ground. ground "earth" would be correct.

 

[posplayr]

-12v basics

-12v basics

Voltage is all relative, so to a certain extent it is dependent on convention.

The Motorcycle frame is usually called "ground" or equivalent to "earth" or "reference" if you will.

If you take two batteries before connecting them to the motorcycle they are both "floating" . If you put a volt meter lead on the frame and another on either lead of the battery you will probably see zero volts. Don't read too much into this becuase there is nothing to reference the voltages (except the meter you are using to measure the voltage diff) and so it is a pretty meaningless measurement.

Generally we connect batteries for "negative ground" by convention, then you connect battery #1 negative side to the frame and the + side becomes +12V with respect to the frame. But because everybody knows that frame is ground reference zero, the plus side just becomes +12V.

Now we could also hook up the other battery to the motorcycle. If you also connect it's negative lead to the frame then you have close to twice the capacity of +12V sources. However you could connect the positive side to ground (i.e. the frame). Then the negative leg of the #2 battery would become -12V.

I should mention to NOT connect the two batteries negative to positive and positive to negatives unless you want a fire ; You will be shorting a big 24V battery.

That is because a volt meter between +12V and -12V will read +24V; it is all relative. Because you chose frame as 0V, the two battery legs although separated by 24V become +12 and - 12V.

EDIT: The fact of the matter is that because the motorcycle runs on rubber tires, the whole electrical system is infact "floating" and so there is no good reference relative to true earth ground (like in dirt ground). Like I said it is all relative and for teh motorcycle everything is referenced to Frame (by convention).

See attached figure.

Pos

 

[Matchless]

Thanks, I have fixed the diagram. Actually meant to label it 12 volt + and - and then a moment of Altzheimers light must have slipped in!

 

[dennis roy]

OK...so now that my eyes are spinning in opposite directions and I feel like a 3 year old in a genetics class.....what would be the best choice for my '82 850glz? LOL I ask this because when I put my bike away last year I noticed it wasn't charging as well as it should.

 

[Billy Ricks]

OK...so now that my eyes are spinning in opposite directions and I feel like a 3 year old in a genetics class.....what would be the best choice for my '82 850glz? LOL I ask this because when I put my bike away last year I noticed it wasn't charging as well as it should.

Depends on whether or not you want to shop Ebay for yourself or not. If you want one right away get one from Duanage. If you have a little time keep an eye on Ebay. I've picked up two from late model CBR1000RRs for about $30.

 

[rustybronco]

.what would be the best choice for my '82 850glz?...

I'll give my opinion.

the time tested Honda would be the choice for those with stock charging system needs, or with an unknown stator condition.

at this time I believe the FH-series R/R (FET) should be used with a known good stator with no flaking/bad coating, or a properly rewound/new stator. I plan on testing a FH010BA with a 27 year old stock stator on my '82 gs to see if I can stress the stator (make it fry). then combine it with a rewound stator sometime in the future on my '80 gs.

the FH-series, in my opinion, would make a nice choice for those seeking the maximum power out of the stock charging system when used with a proper stator, "for those that need it".

***edited*** I can't speak for ALL the cbr1000rr reg's, yet...

 

[Billy Ricks]

I can't speak for the cbr1000rr reg's, yet...

With it being the shunt type it should be fine. I have an extra if anyone wants to run some tests. As long as I get it back I don't mind sending it out.

 

[rustybronco]

With it being the shunt type it should be fine. I have an extra if anyone wants to run some tests. As long as I get it back I don't mind sending it out.

some cbr1000rrs are shunt type some are not. (I don't know how much they power they dissipate is my reason)
*** edited*** most of the sh-series should work fine, as is the FH-series when used as described.

Honda CBR1000RR 06-07 Shindengen SH678B 12V 35 Amp rating, 15.1 V (shunt)
Honda CBR1000RR 08 Shindengen FH008EB 12V 40 Amp rating (fet)
Honda CBR1000RR 08 Shindengen FH014AA 12V 50 Amp rating (fet)

the one I am looking to test is a "Unknown Shindengen SH775AA 35 Amp rating, 15.5V"

which I hear might? be on a cbr10000rr...
http://www.shindengen.com/resources/content/1/1/1/1/documents/SH775 Data.pdf

 

[Billy Ricks]

some cbr1000rrs are shunt type some are not. (I don't know how much they power they dissipate is my reason)
the sh-series should work fine.


the one I am looking to test is a "Unknown Shindengen SH775AA 35 Amp rating, 15.5V"

which I hear might? be on a cbr10000rr...
http://www.shindengen.com/resources/content/1/1/1/1/documents/SH775 Data.pdf

Mine is a SH678FB. I think it's just the last two year models that went to FETs.

 

[posplayr]

Stator Rewind update

Stator Rewind update

FYI

Bikecliff has a nice writeup recently updated on Rewinding Stators. Discusses the relative merits of a stator rewind re: space, increased volts, heat, current.

Thanks to: Andre le Roux Updated 2009/02/15
and Bike Cliff

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yniywx4nu5y

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=3a0ab726f6117e564012e8015643d9c85717b31bfbde8fc1

Pos

 

[Matchless]

FYI

Bikecliff has a nice writeup recently updated on Rewinding Stators. Discusses the relative merits of a stator rewind re: space, increased volts, heat, current.

Thanks to: Andre le Roux Updated 2009/02/15
and Bike Cliff
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yniywx4nu5y
Pos

Oops...! Was not ready for publication yet, but too late now

 

[posplayr]

Matchless

Matchless

Very Nice write up.

Oops...! Was not ready for publication yet, but too late now

And LOL I thought I had overlooked something :-&

U can always update it Andre. :-\\\.

Pos

 

[Nessism]

OK...so now that my eyes are spinning in opposite directions and I feel like a 3 year old in a genetics class.....what would be the best choice for my '82 850glz? LOL I ask this because when I put my bike away last year I noticed it wasn't charging as well as it should.

The Honda CBR type R/R will bolt in place under the battery box just like a stock R/R. That's what I'm using - I have the shunt type and works great.