RR neg to battery neg mod question

[bryan]

Per bakalorz advice in his sig and from other folks, I'm planning to run a wire from the negative lead of the RR to the negative terminal on the battery, as well as replacing the bullet connectors on the stator.

Quick questions: Is the casing to the RR the negative to the frame? Can I just run the wire with a connector put under the nut that holds the RR to the frame and then to the battery, or do I have to splice into the black/white output wire?

Also, is there a specific gauge of wire I should use?

Thanks! Sorry for the dumb questions. All of this is VERY new to me. I've been through just about every other system on my old GS, but never had a charging issue. I've owned this 1100 a couple of weeks, and wouldn't you know it...:-|

 

[Guest]

Before I intalled a Honda R/R I used 12 guage wire with an eye crimped on each end and put one under the ground eye rom the R/R and the other on the battery.

 

[Redman]

Bryan,

Yes, Either a 12 or 14 guage wire, 12 would be better.

Can be to either the R/R case or to the B/W ground wire. To the R/R case would be just a little bit better just per chance the b/w wire doesnt make a good connection.

Does your 83 1100 have the bullett connectors on the stator wiring? My (previous) 80 850G did. My 82 1100GK doesnt, it has the multiconductor connector.

 

[salty_monk]

Mine has a black & white with an eye on it that connects to the battery tray via the RR body mounting bolt.
I just ran a 2nd wire direct from battery & put a 2nd eye on top of the one from the RR before bolting the RR down to the tray.

Seemed like the simplest way to me & cured my charging issues instantly.

Dan

 

[bryan]

Thanks, guys.

Does your 83 1100 have the bullett connectors on the stator wiring?

Yeah, I've got the bullet connectors. But not for long. Appreciate the tips.

I have a REALLY slow drain. After two 30 min rides, my battery is down to 12.3 from 12.5, so it seems like something minor. I need to go back threw the stator fault flow chart again when I have more light and warmer weather to truly isolate the problem, but I planned on making these changes first to see if it clears it up. Easy enough to do, and apparently it's a good idea anyway. Just might end up doing it twice if it doesn't fix things and I have to buy a new stator and/or RR.

 

[bonanzadave]

Ditch that R/R plastic connector and do the ground to the Bat. If you dont trust that get an onboard voltmeter.

 

[Redman]

Bryan,

If your battery voltage is going down while the bike has been running; that sounds like there is a charging problem, is not charging as it should. The r/r ground wire mod will not help this charging problem (is to avoid other problems).

Replacing the bullet connectors may help the charging problem if the connectors are not making good connection. And if they are not making good connection they will be heating up some. If real bad they will heat up enough to discolor and disform the connectors (as happend on the 850G I had). You notice any of that?

Since it seems like you have a volt meter, the most basic thing to check is to check the battery voltage before you start the engine, start it, and check again at mid rpm (like 4000). Let us know what you find.

.

 

[spyug]

I was experiencing a charging problem similar to yours and made the neg to battery mod. It fixed the problem immediately and I got charging at 14+ volts from about 2000 rpm and up.

To get a good connection I spliced into the negative lead (black/white) from the R/R with 12 guage, put a crimped ring on the other end and connected to the battery post.

As I'm always concerned about charging (having real issues with my XS at the moment) I install an analog voltage meter on all bikes so I can monitor all thats going on before it goes pear shaped.

Complete the mod and let us know what you find.

Cheers,
Spyug

 

[bakalorz]

Bryan,

If your battery voltage is going down while the bike has been running; that sounds like there is a charging problem, is not charging as it should. The r/r ground wire mod will not help this charging problem (is to avoid other problems).

Replacing the bullet connectors may help the charging problem if the connectors are not making good connection. And if they are not making good connection they will be heating up some. If real bad they will heat up enough to discolor and disform the connectors (as happend on the 850G I had). You notice any of that?

Since it seems like you have a volt meter, the most basic thing to check is to check the battery voltage before you start the engine, start it, and check again at mid rpm (like 4000). Let us know what you find.

.

A bad enough ground connection can keep the battery from charging properly.



-

 

[bryan]

I did check the volts with the bike running at various rpms (2,500 - 5,000) and I was only getting slightly more than 13 volts. In the stator papers it said 13.5 to 14.8 was the normal.

I haven't seen any cooked wires, and after a 30 minute ride nothing felt hot. Of course, it's pretty chilly in St. Louis still (in the 40s). I plan to do the full fault flow chart diagnostics later this week.

Thanks yet again for all of the advice. I'll keep you posted.

 

[posplayr]

related links on grounding

related links on grounding

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=120110

I provided a point to point wiring list that includes grounding the solenoid and R/R case to plate ground then jumpering to negative side of battery. There appears to be some type of A/C coupling of the R/R where regulation is better with case grounded.

Posplayr

 

[bryan]

Update

Update

I did the negative to negative mod, checked and cleaned my main ground and all my connections thoroughly (for a second time with better lighting). Still a weak charge.

When I examined the wires from the stator to the RR more carefully, I noticed two of them are a little crispy. I'm going to solder them together directly tonight.

I know there is some debate as to whether or not using spade connectors or directly soldering them makes the most sense. But if my stator ends up being bad, I'll end up running new wire from the stator up anyway, right?

I know its wishful thinking, but I'm hoping there was just a bad connection that caused resistance, and that I don't have a toasted stator. The fault finder flow chart from the stator papers seems to indicate a bad stator, but given the condition of the two of the three bullet connectors, I'm not sure I was even getting good conductivity with my volt meter probes.

Thanks for listening to me think out loud. As you can probably, tell I really only know enough to get myself in trouble when it comes to elec systems.

 

[posplayr]

You are on the right track

You are on the right track

If there is resistance in the lines/connections, then the line/connections will drop the R/R output charging voltage and the battery will get what is left over. The Honda R/R is better because it compensates by measureing the output voltage at the battery (through a switch).

It has been surprising to me how bad even visually good connectors can be. If the wire/connections are stiff that is bad and an obvious sign of resistance. Corrosion also gets into the crimps which short of using a chemical etch will not come out. Even soldering probably wont work as the solder will not adhere to corrosion.

Spades are the cleanest as you can then remove it. I would solder the crimps to keep out corrosion as well as insure good mechanical connections. Dielectric grease also helps for the longer term. My ground voltage drop came up from about 0.150v at 5000 RPM to about 0.30v is about 3 months with no grease.

The stator papers are not incorrect but they don't really do a very good job of driving home the point that the small resistances (10 amps into 0.1 ohms generating close to a volt) can cause a failure to charge adequately. The only way to really tell because of the low resistance is to increase the current so that the voltage drop is most observable. That occurs at the higher RPM.

Thus simple modification to the Stator Papers is to insure that voltage drops are low (<0.25 volts ideal) at 5000 RPM (<0.5 volts OK).

Posplayr

 

[Guest]

When I examined the wires from the stator to the RR more carefully, I noticed two of them are a little crispy.

thats how i like my toast, but definitely not good for wires :-D lol

good luck

.

 

[bryan]

Any way to test used Stators/RRs at salvage yard?

Any way to test used Stators/RRs at salvage yard?

This is probably a dumb question, but is there anyway to test used stators or RRs when their off a bike? I would normally buck up for the new parts, but if pretty soon I won't have any money to buy gas for the new bike:?

I replaced the old connectors and chopped off the "burnt" wire ends, and I still have the same problem.

Thanks once again for helping the clueless mechanic...and I use the word mechanic loosely.

 

[posplayr]

Is this the original problem?

I did check the volts with the bike running at various rpms (2,500 - 5,000) and I was only getting slightly more than 13 volts. In the stator papers it said 13.5 to 14.8 was the normal.

Did you ever check the voltage difference between the R/R negative and the battery negative
at Idle? What is it
at 5000 RPM ? What is it?

Did you ever check the voltage difference between the R/R plus output and the battery positive
at Idle? What is it
at 5000 RPM ? What is it?

All of these measurements should be less than 0.5v preferably less than 0.25 volts. If not then you still have connection issues that won't be fixed by replacing the stator or R/R. If you want to fix you bike without changing these components you will have to make sure your connections are right and run that to ground first. If that doesn't fix the problem then start looking to stator and R/R. Get a VOM!!

Posplayr

 

[bryan]

Yes, that was the original problem. Per the stator papers, I did the following steps. Will this test what you're describing:

"Let the engine idle, and connect the black multimeter lead to the battery(+). Connect the red multimeter lead to the RED output wire of the RR. Leave the RR connected to the bike. Check the reading on the meter. Leave the engine idling!"

"Connect the red multimeter lead up to the battery's negative pole (-) Connect the black multimeter lead up to the negative output of the RR (BLACK/WHITE), but leave the RR connected up to its leads on the bike. If you can't find a negative output wire, then the casing of the RR is normally the negative lead to the frame. Check the reading on the meter. Leave the engine idling !"

Those checked out, but I didn't check these at the various RPMs you mention.

Man, where else on earth could you get free advice and patience like this :-D

 

[posplayr]

Trying to keep it simple

Trying to keep it simple

That is fine; So what voltages did you get at idle and what was it after you reved the engine to 5000 RPM? (same electrical connections).

That is all I was asking 8-[


Did you already tear down the bike and remove the stator and R/R?

As mentioned before:

The stator papers are not incorrect but they don't really do a very good job of driving home the point that the small resistances (10 amps into 0.1 ohms generating close to a volt) can cause a failure to charge adequately. The only way to really tell because of the low resistance is to increase the current so that the voltage drop is most observable. That occurs at the higher RPM.

Thus simple modification to the Stator Papers is to insure that voltage drops are low (<0.25 volts ideal) at 5000 RPM (<0.5 volts OK).

If you only have 13.0 output that may not be enough but the charging system is definitely putting out something else you would be draining the battery at about 12.5 volts or lower assuming it is about 12.8v with key off. So the stator is working some and the R/R at least is not over charging. By ruling out your connections you can either fix the problem or move on.

Just trying to ensure that the positive side does not have too much of a drop as previously stated.

Posplayr

 

[bryan]

I only checked at idle it was .2 or less (don't remember exact), so I moved on to "Test Phase B."

I'll check at 5,000 RPM tomorrow night and post again.

 

[bryan]

Did you already tear down the bike and remove the stator and R/R?

Oh and no, I haven't removed the components yet.

I'm definitely getting some charge, but after a long'ish ride my battery light will come on and when I'm done it will have dropped to 12.3 or so. After two or three rides if I don't put it on a charger it will eventually not have enough to turn over the bike.

I looked at other connections outside of the charging system and things SEEMED fine, but is it possible for a bad connection outside of the charging system to cause these symptoms?

I took the battery to get tested at Advanced Auto parts and it is SUPPOSEDLY okay in terms of charging and cold cranking amps.