serious issue with drivetrain - 2nf gear locks rear tire!

[whiteboyslo]

*sigh* one step forward, 30 bajillion steps back.....

took the bike out for an evening ride over to a buddy's house and had a BIG problem on the way back. i was riding her a little hard (not WOT to redline, but a good solid jaunt) with my buddy trying to keep up on a bike that's running a little lame. we get to a light and i look back to tell him to turn off the damn brights. i have the clutch in, but forgot to downshift. i realized it before i went to take off, so i began slamming the gear selector down. nothing was moving. it felt like i was romping on it when it was already in first, so i cautiously began to take off. the rear wheel was LOCKED! i grabbed the clutch back in, SLAMMED it down into 1st, and managed to nurse it around the corner. we pulled off and i took a look. everything looked OK, so i figured i probably had tried to start in a much higher gear and had simply stalled out.

we get out on a residential road, and i start out in 1st. seems fine. i go to grab 2nd, and the rear wheel LOCKS! i ride out the skid (wasn't going fast anyway), and pull off. thankfully, a bike trailer and a ****ed but understanding father was just a phone call away.

so, here's what it's doing:

1) IF you can get it into 1st, it runs just fine. if you quick shift past 2nd, all seems fine, too. but 2nd is not a happy camper

2) it doesn't like to shift, especially downshift. i can shift into what SHOULD be neutral (the light comes on), but it's NOT neutral. the bike lurches forward if you try to start it

3) the clutch SEEMS to be working OK, in that you can pull it in, the bike will roll, and it will start and idle just fine.

4) ever since i got the bike (about a month ago), it has had the infamous clutch rattle. it's pretty loud with the clutch out in idle, but basically goes away when you get the clutch in. the bike shifts (correction: DID shift) just fine. no shudder, no slip, although i have had a FEW instances of the bike popping out of gear or into the lower gear after a shift on a decent romp, but i had been attributing that to my lack of experience with the bike (to fast on the clutch or not aggressive enough on the gear selector).

i haven't had the chance to tear into the bike. it's late and i just got it home. i'll take a look in the morning.

any ideas on what i might be looking at, or more importantly, what kind of COST i'm looking at?

Mike

 

[Guest]

I sounds like you bent your shifter forks.

 

[tfb]

Drain the oil, drop the sump plate off (you can do this with the engine in the frame) and then peer up underneath and see what you can in the gearbox...

... but it sounds like it's time to pull the engine out, split the cases, and repair whatever's been bent or broken.

 

[Guest]

So what happened?

 

[whiteboyslo]

so far, nothing. i'm taking a little break from the bike right now. i'm going to talk to a few mechanics and get a ballpark of what it would cost to have done (assuming it's bent forks, which sounds like a good guess at the moment), then i'm going to have to sit and read up on just how much i would be getting myself into should i decide to tackle this myself. honestly, though, getting into tranny internals is a whole new realm for me and has me intimidated. on the plus side, the bike is relatively cheap, simple, and would be a good thing to start learning on. on the other hand, should i screw something up, it could end up WAY worse than just being stuck on the side of the road.

in all, though, i need to step back and evaluate how much i really want to do on this bike. i think i'm past the point of selling it (like i was with the last round of problems). i'd simply lose too much $$$. so, for now, i'm planning on taking care of issues on some of my other vehicles (truck needs PS pump, front brakes, maybe a clutch, etc.....). when i'm done with that and have some mad money to throw at the bike, i'll look into it. for now, i just plan on going out and starting her up every other day or so, and take it from there. she won't get ridden (obviously).

so, i'm thinking it would need the following done. please correct me if i'm wrong:

1) yank engine/tranny

2) split 'em open. examine for damage. replace components as necessary. i've found some used tranny guts on ebay for only $50 or so. push come to shove, i could just rebuild the whole dang tranny. sounds like i basically have to in order to fix this problem

3) replace the clutch. she needs it anyway. i won an auction on a used clutch set for the bike. it gets me the basket, which i'm hoping is in good shape. if not, it at least gives me a core to send out and have welded. i'll replace the rest of the guts with new stuff, though

it'd be nice to have a running bike to be able to go out on rides with the folks this summer, but i have to prioritize. too many other things going on right now.

Mike

 

[Nessism]

First thing to do is pull the clutch cover off, and then the clutch. The shift drum is under the clutch and maybe you bent something when you ham footed the down shift. Not sure this is the problem but it can't hurt to do the easy stuff first.

 

[bwringer]

Personally, I'd just keep my eyes open for a decent engine or parts bike and transplant the engine or maybe just the bottom end. I've done this with my GS850.

Make sure you drain the carbs and store them somewhere safe in the meantime. Remove the battery and put it on a maintainer in a safe corner.

If you'd like to fix this engine, I can personally attest that the transmission and shifting components look very confusing and complicated in the manuals and diagrams, but they're easy to understand when they're in front of you and you can see how everything fits and works together. It's all pretty logical.

You can pretty much see everything with the oil pan off, so you might want to just pull that off and play with it until you get an idea what broke or bent (likely a shift fork as noted above). It's easier with the engine upside-down on a workbench, but with goggles (to keep the drips out of your eyes) and a good strong light, you can probably pull the oil pan with the engine in the frame and take a look.

 

[Guest]

You don't have to split the cases to remove the shifter rod, do you? Doesn't it slide out the clutch side?
I haven't had to mess with the tranny so I'm asking.

 

[whiteboyslo]

well, i spent some time with the Clymer's in the 'library' last night. depending on what's wrong, exactly, it MAY come to cracking the case. not sure yet.

i may crack open the clutch side just for ****s and giggles, esp since i have that 'new' clutch coming in tomorrow. couldn't hurt at this point, right?

but, if it comes to splitting the case, it's gonna sit for a while. damn shame, too. i just got done cleaning her up and painting the plastics (albeit i SUCK with a rattle can, but it still looks better IMHO).

Mike

 

[Suzuki mad]

I would suggest that you drop the oil out, probably get the exhaust off and the undo the 12 bolts that hold the sump on. Using a torch look up inside at the gears and you can also change gear to see what happens in second.

If you take the the clutch off there will be two cover plates, one partly behind the oil pump, which hold the selector forks in place. The rods are held in by these covers and the selctors slide on them.

I've done transmisions before. The hardest part is the spliting of the drive and input shafts to get the cogs off if one of them is damaged and getting as little sealant on the case halfs before reassembly.

Here a picture of what you are looking at from the top of the bike towards the sump pan.

Suzuki mad

N.B white cirles is the fingers of the gear selector forks, the right side is the clutch basket side and the unlined parts are where the sump pan would be!

 

[Suzuki mad]

This is the top side of the engine with the crank and barrels which can stay intact. If there is cog problems you do not need to strip the barrels off if the engine is good!

This photo shows the gears and what you should be looking at. Any dark marks on the cogs is a problem! the bits in red is where the gear selctors run to change gear!

Suzuki mad

 

[Baatfam]

You don't have to split the cases to remove the shifter rod, do you? Doesn't it slide out the clutch side?
I haven't had to mess with the tranny so I'm asking.

Yes, you can pull the shifter rod out without splitting the cases, but you can't get to the forks because of some webbing built into the case.
Of course that is on the 1100s, I'm not sure about the 1000s.
On my race bike the webbing is cut out and we can change out the forks and rods at the track without pulling the motor.

It's not that tough to split the cases though....just did mine a few weeks ago....(bent a lot more than the forks).
First time, just followed the manual.

Bob T.

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Don't forget to take lots of pictures to help in reassembly

 

[Steve]

Using a torch look up inside at the gears and you can also change gear to see what happens in second.

CAREFUL, there, Suzuki Mad. :shock:

You have to remember that he's on this side of the Pond. If he uses a "torch", he's likely to burn the place down. [-X
Over here, we call that thing a "flashlight". 8-[

A "torch" is also known as "a blue-tipped wrench". It is occasionally used to remove "frozen" bolts and nuts. \\/


.

 

[Suzuki mad]

OOOPPPSSSS. I don't want to start another up rising........

Does any one have an English - American translater web site for me to use?

Suzuki mad

 

[tfb]

CAREFUL, there, Suzuki Mad.

You have to remember that he's on this side of the Pond. If he uses a "torch", he's likely to burn the place down.
Over here, we call that thing a "flashlight".

A "torch" is also known as "a blue-tipped wrench". It is occasionally used to remove "frozen" bolts and nuts.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[whiteboyslo]

that's ok. whenever i read Suzuki mad's posts, i just have Eddie Izzard's voice going through my head and somehow i get all the little American English to English English nuances.

Mike

 

[Suzuki mad]

The cheek.......

The cheek.......

that's ok. whenever i read Suzuki mad's posts, i just have Eddie Izzard's voice going through my head and somehow i get all the little American English to English English nuances.

Mike

Eddie Izz 'bats for the other side' thank you very much.

If you want a sound a lookalike model try a mixture of Luciano Pavoroti but talking like Bob Hoskins (The guy from Who Framed Roger Rabbitt.)

OK, fun over...............So, how do 'we' help this guy get his bike problem identified and fixed....

Suzuki mad.

 

[whiteboyslo]

well, it'd help if i got off my butt and did something with the bike.

i went out last night and started her up, because Lord knows i don't want to take more steps back. even with the clutch in, it wasn't disengaged in the lower gears (1st, 2nd, and even Neutral). however, once i shifted her up past that, i could get the clutch to diengage everything and fire her up.

if i have time this weekend, i'll at least pull the clutch and see what i can see. i picked up a used clutch set (incl a new basket) from ebay, mainly to try and get rid of the infamous clutch rattle. it may be next weekend, though. i've been putting off the front brakes on my truck and they sorely need done.

Mike

 

[whiteboyslo]

ok, so i went out and started the bike again today...

found something interesting. in first, neutral, and what i THINK is 2nd, i can idle the bike with the clutch completely out. upper gears, if i let out the clutch, it stalls like you'd expect.

any clues?

Mike