Severe Rattle from Top of Cylinder Head

[Suzuki_Don]

Our washing machines were made out Aussie 20c made out of old bean cans. When I were a lad we used to dream of owning a rusty bean can........(sorry Don, I'll curtail the stupidness).

Wally and others. Thoughts on whether to use threadlocker on the cam cap bolts to prevent them from loosening. I read on a Kawa site that threadlocker is not required or used by the factory, but if threadlocker is to be used then the Loctite 222 (purple) is the one to use. It's the one for small screws like in carbs, 6mm threads or less and for bolts and screws that need to be removed regularly.

Comments.

 

[7981GS]

Tap them 10mm deeper and get longer bolts.

Like so...

Daniel

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Tap them 10mm deeper and get longer bolts.

Like so...

Daniel

I have recoils in all of the cam cap bolt holes already after the bolts stripping out the threads in the head on a previous motor. Took no risk this time, drilled them all out o/s and fitted the recoils (stainless threads). This way I know I can torque the bolts down to the 1.2 kgfm and not stripping anything.

 

[hampshirehog]

I've never used Loctite up there Don. I always felt that when you tighten this bolts up to the right torque, and with them being 'that steel' (is it number 9, I can't remember off the top of my head) going in to aluminium that they'll never come undone on their own. Having said that, you're winding some of those bolts in to steel recoils so Loctite wouldn't hurt.

Can't help you on the purple. I've only ever used red and blue inside an engine (and green outside). I wouldn't use red (or green for that matter, unless you knew that the engine would never, ever have to come apart again) for these bolts.

 

[7981GS]

The purple and green ones should ONLY be used on something that you NEVER want to unscrew EVER.
Blue on those bolts, would be my choice.

Daniel

 

[Suzuki_Don]

The purple and green ones should ONLY be used on something that you NEVER want to unscrew EVER.
Blue on those bolts, would be my choice.

Daniel

Daniel, this is the purple threadlocker that I am referring to and it says it is low strength. This is the wording from the Loctite website.

Loctite 38653 222 Purple Low Strength Thread Locker

[FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1][FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1]

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION​

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]

LOCTITE​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]? [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]222 provides the following product characteristics:​

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1][FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1]

Technology​

​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]Acrylic
Chemical Type Dimethacrylate ester
Appearance (uncured) Purple liquid[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]LMS​

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]

Fluorescence Positive under UV light​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]LMS​

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]

Components One component - requires no mixing
Viscosity Low, thixotropic​

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1][FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1]

Cure​

​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]Anaerobic
Secondary Cure Activator​

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1][FONT=Arial-BoldMT+1]

Application​

​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]Threadlocking​

Strength Low
[/FONT][/FONT]
Maybe you are thinking of another product. I have seen the 222 referred to as light blue, but it looks purple to me. Hope I'm not colour blind.

I think I'll try the purple first as I have some on the shelf, if the bolts still loosen off then I'll go for something a bit stronger, the blue one as you suggested. Remembering that it is grade 9 steel bolts going into stainless steel recoils.

 

[7981GS]

Last time that I used the purple stuff, they had to cutit off with a torch.
I do not recommend using it.
And yes, the bolts marked with a 9 are grade 10.9 metrics.

Daniel

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Last time that I used the purple stuff, they had to cutit off with a torch.
I do not recommend using it.
And yes, the bolts marked with a 9 are grade 10.9 metrics.

Daniel

Daniel, we must be talking about different products. On the container of 222 that I have at home it says it is for set screws, carburettor screws, etc. and for regular removal. As below:

[FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]

LOCTITE​

[/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]? [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]222 is designed for the locking and sealing of
threaded fasteners which require easy disassembly with
standard hand tools. The product cures when confined in the
absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces and
prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration.
Particularly suitable for applications such as adjustment of
set screws, small diameter or long engagement length
fasteners, where easy disassembly is required without
shearing the screw. The thixotropic nature of LOCTITE[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]? [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT+1][FONT=ArialMT+1]222
reduces the migration of liquid product after application to the​

substrate.

What I might do is a trial and let it sit for a few days to see if it disassembles OK.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[john82q]

Don,

if it were me I would use the 222 it wont hurt.

loctite info.

http://www.loctitesolutions.com/files/AN09/Threadlocking_Guide.pdf


John

 

[hampshirehog]

John that chart is wrong - the green stuff isn't high strength, it's evil strength

The purple looks lower strength than the blue and blue would be ok.

(I know i'm being lazy only giving the colours but I can't remember the numbers that I've got on the sides of my pots of Loctite)

 

[Suzuki_Don]

John, Wally, Daniel; I notice in the chart John supplied the 222, purple, low strength has an upper temperature limit of +150degC. Do you guys think the temp of where the cam cap bolts thread in would be above that temperature?

thoughts.

 

[49er]

John, Wally, Daniel; I notice in the chart John supplied the 222, purple, low strength has an upper temperature limit of +150degC. Do you guys think the temp of where the cam cap bolts thread in would be above that temperature?

thoughts.

Don, I wouldn't put any Loctite on those cam cap bolts. Many people over torque them, only to damage the threads or break the bolts. Ali expands at a greater rate than steel, so over torqued bolts will get higher loads once the expansion rate increases, during hard riding.

Is it possible that you got interrupted when tightening them the first time? IMO, you would need quite a lot of vibration to cause those bolts to back off.

 

[7981GS]

John, Wally, Daniel; I notice in the chart John supplied the 222, purple, low strength has an upper temperature limit of +150degC. Do you guys think the temp of where the cam cap bolts thread in would be above that temperature?

thoughts.

I would think that the combustion chamber area would get way over 302 Fahrenheit or 150 Celsius.

And yes, probably not a good idea to use any sealant on the threads.


Daniel

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Don, I wouldn't put any Loctite on those cam cap bolts. Many people over torque them, only to damage the threads or break the bolts. Ali expands at a greater rate than steel, so over torqued bolts will get higher loads once the expansion rate increases, during hard riding.

Is it possible that you got interrupted when tightening them the first time? IMO, you would need quite a lot of vibration to cause those bolts to back off.

Ian, I think you could be correct. Before I checked my shim clearances I decided to make sure the cam caps were properly seated by re-torquing the cam cap bolts. All were fine except for this one which was loose. So it is quite possible that I was called away and did not fully tighten this last one. Also it was on the intake cam which would make sense as well as when doing the cam timing the intake cam goes in and is timed last and it would make sense that those caps would be tightened last of all.

I am having a rethink about using the Loctite on these bolts and think I will just recheck the torque on them and leave them at that.

I see Daniel is of the same opinion.