"SMOKING" Can Be Hazardous To Your GS Also, Geeze!

[joejeweler]

You might remember the tread on my finding an unexpected slit on my 4 week old rear tire. Got that changed
out today in 15 minutes at the dealer.

BUT,.....my "ingenuity" got the better of me over the few days i waited for the new tire to arrive.

Ever had a day like this?????

Let me begin with a follow through of the last bit of the tire replacement:

".....the new rear tire looked perfect so i put a healthy coating of the Honda moly 60 lube on the now
squeaky-clean splines (both parts), and began the wheel mounting. I was careful getting everything double
checked and tightened down,......so maybe an hour later the wheel was "good to go!"


Unfortunately, the bike was NOT!


No one to blame but me, but since i had a few days pause waiting for the tire to come in, i decided to
take out the battery box and clean the engine ground just in front of it, and the problem was i went way
beyond my area of expertise and pay grade!

I added a 2nd (back up) ground with lovely soldered on ring connectors protected with shrink wrap near
the ends. Used some of the 10 guage black wire i had left over from doing the FH012AA Mosfet R/R upgrade
last week.

A work of art,...well, maybe not but a mightly fine ground connection of the 10 guage soldered ends variety!

Here's where it went, on the engine piggy-backed to the ground already there. Located just in front of the
battery box compartment, off to the left in this photo:

I figured the soldered connections would be a great addition to the original ground leaving the same point
on the engine, and as i followed the original ground wire found it connected to the starting solenoid. (probably
an 8 or 6 guage wire originally there).


Anyway, i didn't remove the 1st ground wire, but when i added the newly made 2nd ground wire to the SAME
connection point on the solenoid all i got was a clicking sound,.....no starter turnover!

(edited to add: I now realize i 1st connected my new ground wire to the "hot when starter button pushed" lead going
to the starter, but that is not where i was "Smokin"! The darn black & Red wires on solenoid caused a brain fart!)


OK,......while i'm trying to figure out WHY a 2nd ground wire from the same "point A" to "point B" might be
causing this, (in my mind it "should" be a better ground,....having soldered on ring connectors?), i decide to
unhook the extra engine ground from the solenoid to make sure that was the problem.


Off it comes, and now the solenoid works fine and the engine cranks over and starts right up. But what to do
with that NEW, perfectly good engine ground?

The answer should have been,........."Rip the $#@!%&!! OUT!"


......but i didn't, i made the biggest mistake yet on any of my bike wrenching. Please keep it on the downlow,
but if my mistake will prevent just one of you from making the same one,....my "shame" will
have had some meaning.


I decided to give the battery box a "great ground, and attached the new wire as a backup to the right side
screw of the starting solenoid,....the black wire/white stripe one that i "thought" was a simple ground.

This is the screw that you take out to allow the left side battery box componany plate to come off, and has
the black w/white stripe wire connected.


I attached it here along with the original (ground?), where the screwdriver is pointing:

......key on, engine starts, and a PLUME OF SMOKE rises from beneath my gas tank!


WTF???? Key QUICKLY turned off,......and then began a FIVE HOUR tour through my wiring harness to find the damage.,.....geeze.


I take out the battery and b/box, gas tank and side covers also, and found that original black/white stripe
wire (pic above w/screwdriver on it) had melted much of it's insulation,.....and about 6 inches into my following
the damaged wire found it had totally melted thru the copper wire.

Not a pretty sight:

....and began opening the wire harness up to trace the damage:

.......and a bit more along the exploritory surgery:

....... opening up the wire harness further i was grateful to finally see the END of the damage. (maybe 15" into
the wiring harness) That was where there is a 3 wire crimp connect junction, and i soldered on a new black
w/white stripe wire i had (from an old turn signal), and carefully sealed it up.

After the obvious damage was repaired, i spent another hour with my magnifying headband closely inspecting
all the other wires that the melting wire came in contact with. It was mostly just pieces of the melted wire
sticking to several of the other wires,.....and i found none of them compromised in their own insulation covering.


Anyway,.....once i spent the additional 5 hours repairing my self-imposed disaster,.....i am happy to report the
bike is now fixed and running strong as before!


Tonight i went on a 45 mile ride to scuff up the new rear tire a bit. (and check out my repair is case i missed
something) Beautiful weather today,.....75 degrees, 50% humidity, and sunny........


.....but i'm beat!


BTW,....if anyone knows definitively what went wrong here,.....please let me know.


cheers,
Joe T

 

[Steve]

BTW,....if anyone knows definitively what went wrong here,.....please let me know.

Can't say "definitively", but I do have a question. :-k

I figured the soldered connections would be a great addition to the original ground leaving the same point on the engine, and as i followed the original ground wire found it connected to the starting solenoid. (probably an 8 or 6 guage wire originally there).


Anyway, i didn't remove the 1st ground wire, but when i added the newly made 2nd ground wire to the SAME connection point on the solenoid all i got was a clicking sound,.....no starter turnover!

OK. The only "8 or 6 gauge wire" that is connected to the starter solenoid is NOT a ground wire.

Just where did you connect your second ground wire?

To me, it sounds like you connected to the large starter terminal on the top of the solenoid. Referencing your second photo, it appears from your narrative that you connected the wire where the screwdriver is pointing. The only (stock) wire connected there is going to be a 16- or, at most, a 14-gauge wire, not an 8 or a 6. The terminal at the top left of the picture, the one with the nut holding the large wire (that's an 8-gauge wire, by the way) is the wire that goes to the starter. If you connected your ground wire to that, ... well, let's just say that you saw one of the possible results.

What puzzles me, though, is why the wire inside the harness melted. Evidently you had other problems that were only brought out by this recent addition.

I experienced some puzzling wiring on my son's 1000G a few months ago, you can read about it here.

.

 

[7981GS]

Hooking a good ground wire to the hot lead usually doesn't turn out well.
Happy to see that the damage was MUCH less than it easily could have been.

Eric

 

[joejeweler]

Can't say "definitively", but I do have a question. :-k



OK. The only "8 or 6 gauge wire" that is connected to the starter solenoid is NOT a ground wire.

Just where did you connect your second ground wire?

To me, it sounds like you connected to the large starter terminal on the top of the solenoid. Referencing your second photo, it appears from your narrative that you connected the wire where the screwdriver is pointing. The only (stock) wire connected there is going to be a 16- or, at most, a 14-gauge wire, not an 8 or a 6. The terminal at the top left of the picture, the one with the nut holding the large wire (that's an 8-gauge wire, by the way) is the wire that goes to the starter. If you connected your ground wire to that, ... well, let's just say that you saw one of the possible results.

What puzzles me, though, is why the wire inside the harness melted. Evidently you had other problems that were only brought out by this recent addition.

I experienced some puzzling wiring on my son's 1000G a few months ago, you can read about it here.

.

Hi Steve,....your diagnosis is correct. In a moment of not thinking it all thru, i initially connected the new ground
wire to the heavy left side solenoid wire going to the starter, thinking it to be a ground (a "black" wire) , and
just got a clicking sound when the starter was pressed. (No smoking wires though)

Brain fart,...contributing to the confusion because the right side of the solenoid is connected to the pos+
battery post, but forgetting the solenoid is just a switch allowing POWER to flow to the starter only while the starter
button is pressed.

As i believe it's a "hot" wire (now! ) feeding the starter when button pressed, and not the ground i thought it
to be based on the wire's black color,.....that could have been a LOT worse i suppose. It was only hooked up for
a few seconds before i turned the key off and disconnected to wire at that location.

It's possible when i traced the motor ground up to see where it connected, i missed that it was NOT the left
side of the solenoid connection, but actually originating out the back of the starter in the same area where
the factory engine ground originates.

......but that is not where the smoke and wire toasting started.

The frying happened when that "new" engine ground was connected to the screw i'm pointing at with the
screwdriver, which still has me stumped :?:

.....is not the battery box "grounded" somehow somewhere???

.....and why would that 16 guage black w/white stripe wire melt back into the harness with an engine ground
attached to the battery box?

Although the front of the battery box is up on a rubber gromet, the 2 rear hold down screws i don't think
totally isolate the battery box from frame or engine grounds? Maybe they do with the rubber gromets,....but
if so i never knew that.

....i've owned the bike for over 6 years,.....and last 3 years before this season in storage. But over the time i've
had it on the road,....i've put about 4K of the 14.4K miles on it without any problem. (not counting maintainence
items, and R/R and SS brake line upgrades this year.) All electrical controls have worked 100%

I guess i'm lucky the wire attached where my screwdriver is pointing was maybe a 16 or 18 guage wire, because
whatever caused it burned thru the wire in just a few seconds.

Had it been a heavier guage, more heat over a longer time period might have taken out more wiring!

BTW, where i traced that damaged wire back to where there is a factory 3 wire crimp connection,......i believe one of the wires (back w/white stripe also),....is one of the connections to the fuel level sending unit.

Hooking a good ground wire to the hot lead usually doesn't turn out well.
Happy to see that the damage was MUCH less than it easily could have been.

Eric

Yep,....i even pulled the starter cover today after i got the bad wire replaced in the harness, and saw no
obvious damage, and no funny smells. I think the fact the wiring is much heavier there saved my a$$!

The starter solenoid, had i fried it, wouldn't have been a big problem, as i have a full parts bike
(same year/model) with a starter, and also a loose frame with battery box componants including a 2nd
backup solenoid.

.......but nice i didn't have to see if they're in working order!

I think in the future i'm going to run any new ideas through this board BEFORE i make the change.

 

[Dreef1999]

So you 'connected' the engine ground to the starter relay ground?

If your new engine ground was bad then you passed the ignitions systems current through the relay ground? Just a thought, somehow you got more than 10amps into the B/W relay ground to melt it like that.

 

[koolaid_kid]

In order to melt the wire like that a direct short from the battery to the b/w ground wire would be required. Not sure how just a key on would do that, though.
If it were connected to the starter side of the solenoid, and then key on - hit starter button were done, I could see that happening.

 

[joejeweler]

So you 'connected' the engine ground to the starter relay ground?

If your new engine ground was bad then you passed the ignitions systems current through the relay ground? Just a thought, somehow you got more than 10amps into the B/W relay ground to melt it like that.

That's what gets me,....as i don't see HOW a ground wire connected to that engine point sent anything thru the melted wire?

BTW,.....the ground wire i made was fine,....tested it with my multimeter and it read zero ohms in the house. When i piggy backed it to the ground wire already on that engine screw bolt i lightly sanded all the old circle ring connectors to make sure i had a "good connection"...........

..............but it turned out to be a VERY "bad connection"!

BTW,.....no fuses blew,......kind of surprising with the look of that wire damage.

 

[koolaid_kid]

No fuses blew because there is no fuse between the battery and the starter relay.

 

[Dreef1999]

That's what gets me,....as i don't see HOW a ground wire connected to that engine point sent anything thru the melted wire?

BTW,.....the ground wire i made was fine,....tested it with my multimeter and it read zero ohms in the house. When i piggy backed it to the ground wire already on that engine screw bolt i lightly sanded all the old circle ring connectors to make sure i had a "good connection"...........

..............but it turned out to be a VERY "bad connection"!

BTW,.....no fuses blew,......kind of surprising with the look of that wire damage.

New wire might have been good but obviously it wasn't playing well.

Eliminate and reroute ground through a smaller gauge wire... smoke?

Looking at the picture of your engine ground it looks like you had some of the insulation/heat shrink under the bolt flange. The ring wasn't free and clear all around to be making solid contact with the bolt and in the process might have kept it from having solid grounding contact on the engine side too.

Just a thought. I am no electrical guru or expert but just looking at a wiring diagram and guessing at what happened. If you want to grab your wiring diagram and add in some notes on what is grounded to what and where you added/changed things then it might quickly become apparent what the problem was.

 

[joejeweler]

New wire might have been good but obviously it wasn't playing well.

Eliminate and reroute ground through a smaller gauge wire... smoke?

Looking at the picture of your engine ground it looks like you had some of the insulation/heat shrink under the bolt flange. The ring wasn't free and clear all around to be making solid contact with the bolt and in the process might have kept it from having solid grounding contact on the engine side too.

Just a thought. I am no electrical guru or expert but just looking at a wiring diagram and guessing at what happened. If you want to grab your wiring diagram and add in some notes on what is grounded to what and where you added/changed things then it might quickly become apparent what the problem was.

The engine ground bolt head cleared all the shrink wrap,......the pic might not be as clear.

And certainly the ring connector of my new ground wire was laying flat against the original ring connector as i put the bolt thru while in my hand. That contact alone should have assured a good connection, as i lightly sanded the original ring connector surfaces prior to assembly.

Obviously i am also not an electrical guru , but after the heat came down i wondered if the solenoid might have a different grounding than to the engine?

.... the thought also crossed my mind of the old math equation.....

......multiplying 2 negatives together make it a POSITIVE! :lol: (ie: 1 ground X 1 ground = 1 Positive= SMOKE! )

 

[Dreef1999]

solenoid grounds the same as everything else. B/W in a GS means ground wire and the fact you traced it all back up to the fuel sending etc confirms you don't have some crazy wiring harness.

So to rehash. You connected at the black wire 'engine ground' which you traced to the hot side of the starter relay? Then you connected the other end to the confirmed relay/frame ground.

I am buying into the direct short into the B/W wire more and more. It sounds like that wasn't actually an engine ground you went to then?

 

[joejeweler]

solenoid grounds the same as everything else. B/W in a GS means ground wire and the fact you traced it all back up to the fuel sending etc confirms you don't have some crazy wiring harness.

So to rehash. You connected at the black wire 'engine ground' which you traced to the hot side of the starter relay? Then you connected the other end to the confirmed relay/frame ground.

I am buying into the direct short into the B/W wire more and more. It sounds like that wasn't actually an engine ground you went to then?

To clarify, there were TWO separate connections made, both initiating at the engine ground bolt.

On my FIRST connection of the other loose o-ring end, i thought i had traced it "accurately" from the engine ground up to the heavy black wire on the left side of the solenoid.

In hindsight i must have traced incorrectly at the back of the starter where the engine ground wire passes, and confused the wires and picked up the wrong wire leading up to the solenoid. The fact the solenoid wire was black didn't help, athough it should have hit me the wire connecting at that post was MUCH heavier!

......and as i mentioned hitting the starter button just produced a clicking sound, but no starter activity. Just one attempt of a second or two,.....and quickly disconected.


On my SECOND connection of the now loose o-ring connector, rather than tearing out the new ground (and having to tear apart the battery box again), i decided to make use of the new ground wire by augmenting the ground i saw with the black/white stripe wire that you also read as a ground wire on the solenoid.

.....and upon hitting the starter button smoke immediately wifted up!
The engine started also, btw, and i quickly turned the key off to shut it down. Forgot to mention that earlier.

It seems to me i was lucky my first improper connection didn't burn out the solenoid or starter, but it was obvious something was wrond and it was a very short try with the starter button.

.....but no way am i getting why adding a 2nd ground to the ground wire on the solinoid caused the short???

 

[koolaid_kid]

Thanks for the clarification joejeweler. If hitting the starter button cause the magic smoke to exit, this means for certain that you had/have the starter side of the solenoid running to ground. There can be no other explanation for it. The starter side of the solenoid only receives power when the button is pressed. I understand the rest of your posts, that you believe you removed the ground from the starter side of the solenoid, so you will want to triple check your work, using a mulitmeter, prior to starting the bike again.

 

[joejeweler]

Thanks for the clarification joejeweler. If hitting the starter button cause the magic smoke to exit, this means for certain that you had/have the starter side of the solenoid running to ground. There can be no other explanation for it. The starter side of the solenoid only receives power when the button is pressed. I understand the rest of your posts, that you believe you removed the ground from the starter side of the solenoid, so you will want to triple check your work, using a mulitmeter, prior to starting the bike again.

As of now, that additional ground wire is OUT of the bike.

I believe the 18 guage (approx., same look as old one) black w/white stripe ground wire at the plate screw on
the solenoid brings it back to the original configuration. (this was the melted wire within the harness)

Reqarding your thoughts "for certain" on being connected to the starter side of the solenoid, that WAS
true on the FIRST connection and start attempt, wherein i just got a clicking sound. But NO smoke and
i quicky disconnected the wire at the solenoid's left post.

The SECOND connection was as i related, and made onto the solenoid plate grounding wire. (On top of the
stock ground wire that burned out)

As i recall the MOST smoke happened after the engine began to run,....not at the time the starter was briefly
pressed. I realize smoke takes a moment to rise up and be noticed, but the smoking lasted maybe 3 or 4
seconds,....until i got over the initial shock and shut it all down.

My 45 mile ride last night was problem free, and i made 4 stops along the way. The bike had strong starter turnover
each time i restarted.

edited: just got back from another 50 mile trip tonight,.....one of those wonderful cool and refreshing jaunts on country roads with temps around 73 degrees, clear skies, and no humidity. Made 3 stops to grab a mag to read while i grabbed a brocolli/cheeze baked potato at Wendy's, and got gas.......strong restarts each time and runs great.

The new rear tire now has around 100 miles on it, and can stop the "serpentine" driving where road was clear to get the sides scuffed up a bit.

......hope i caught and corrected all the wrong i did my old girl! Feeling more confident on my exploritory wiring harness surgery now........

 

[Killer2600]

And this is why I'm opposed to adding grounds.

Can say exactly without having been there and witnessed all the data but what happened was your new ground was better than the old so starter and ignition current used it instead. It doesn't take much running of the starter to burn off the insulation of 30 year old 18 gauge wire ground wire. At which point it's all down hill because the insulation is already melted and possibly on fire.

Lesson learned, don't do it again Extra grounds aren't necessarily your friend.